Maillon rapide / quick links breaking load (lead rope solo)

Hi, just signed up after reading the forum for a while.

In a lead rope solo scenario, it's often suggested to use a maillon rapide in place of an alluminium carabiner. It's important to consider that I would actually use a carabiner with an ACL system (those biners with that skinny that prevents cross-loading). However, I am confused because my Climbing Technology quick link has a 10KN limit on the minor axis. Wouldn't this mean that it's safer to use an ACL carabiner?
My questions:
1) How is the maillon rapide better if it says 10KN on the minor axis? Because of its shape that makes it unlikely to cross load? Because it doesn't actually break but only deform? Any technical source on this?
2) Should I then use (for both anchoring and attaching to my device) a carabiner with an ACL system or a maillon rapide?

I don't do trad (for now!) so I won't take a Randall-60-feet-factor-2 fall, but still I want to use the best possible setup and to better understand my gear.

Thanks.

UPDATE 02/2020

Quicklinks are construction hardware and are often rated as such with a safety margin of somewhere between 2:1 to 5:1 MBS:rating. However it sounds like your climbtech quicklink may just not be up to the task at hand.

As said above quick links are usually rated for working load not maximum braking strength.  Although since yours is from climbtwch and is rated Kn maybe its different?

Disclaimer I don't lead solo

Ok.
When I bought the maillon rapide I did it in a climbing shop thinking "these are certified for climbing so they're fine". But they are for rappeling and stuff like that, so they're not ok for lead rope solo. It's a 7 mm one.
So maybe I have to buy a 10 mm "industrial" one. Those goes up to 55 kN; although they don't specify the minor axis value I guess that would be high too.
edited:
No, look at this:
https://www.marchal-bodin.fr/mousqueton-maillon-rapide/5513-maillon-rapide-oval-10-mm-camp.html
major axis : 45 Kn
minor axis : 10 Kn
It says "résistance", so it's not clear what it means (WLL or break strength).

Still confused.

Carabiners are pretty weak if they aren't loaded along the spine.  For example a Petzl William HMS holds 23kn along the spine, but 7 kn along the gate.  That's not cross loaded.  Also the gate is super weak to inward or sideways forces.

Your anti crossload hms won't save you.

Here is a write up from Petzl.   m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Exa…

Welcome to rope soloing. It's generally a confusing clusterfuck. I do not use a maillon. I use a steel locking carabiner and then some paracord to hold the top of carabiner to a chest harness so it is always under tension pointing up and cannot cross load. I haven't been rope soloing for very long, but in my experience everyone's system is slightly different and adjusted to suit the needs of their climbing and risk tolerance. There are many right ways to do things and twice as many wrong ways. Avoid the wrong ones, become intimately familiar with all the quirks of your particular system, and really ease into it grade wise.

There is a rope soloing group on facebook run by Yann Camus that is a very good resource to see what systems others use and also to ask questions. Lead rope soloing is a fairly small niche and I've found that the facebook group is a way better resource than mountain project because there simply arent that many people here that do it.

The slackline community uses shackles for anchors because they're strong in all directions and can be tri-loaded. Could be another option? 

A thing to watch out for is that your device can't get jambed on the spine or gate.

That's why a BD tech guy recommend using the grigri in the small end of the BD gridlock.  

If you use an Eddy...you can slip a skinny sling through the hole to back up the carabiner.  It's possible with a grigri, but a tight fit.

> 10KN limit on the minor axis

EN 362 requirements. 25kN along the major axis (gate closed and locked) and 10kN along the minor axis (gate closed). It does not mean 10kN is a minimum breaking strength and it will break apart under 10.01kN load. 10kN is not necessary a limit, it just holds 10kN load to conform to EN 362.

JFYF we have pulled some 6mm rapids with 7kN marking, they have broken under 22..25kN load.

Maybe a dumb question but why don't people just use the Petzl Ring Open? Inconvenient with the tool to open? 

Never heard of the ring open. Seems like a good fit for the application. 

Nick Smolinske wrote: The slackline community uses shackles for anchors because they're strong in all directions and can be tri-loaded. Could be another option? 

I've been wondering the same thing. Thinking about grabbing some amsteel

Edit: ah I mean soft shackles. Did you mean all metal?

Careful with shackles. I work construction and the are great under load to keep the bolt in place, wbut while climbing the device of choose is just wiggling around and may back the bolt out.

The spacer can be protected from being loaded by using their rubber carabiner keeper, the opening is 11mm.  Soft shackles are nice light, compact, non cross loadable connectors.

i was wondering when soft links would creep into climbing to replace rapides in some situations.......i make soft links, or "slinks" for connections between risers and canopy on skydiving rigs for probably the past 15 years.....they are also commercially available.

That ring would be a major pain for connecting your belay device to your harness.  You do not want to be breaking out an Allen key every time you finish a pitch, dropping it, etc.

Soft shackles are an interesting idea though.  I don't have any experience with them myself, how likely does it seem that the ball/loop closure could come undone in the faff and cluster of a typical lead solo harness connection point?

Nick Smolinske wrote:shackles

Aidan Raviv wrote:Petzl Ring Open?

Non practical, especially if your anchor is the first bolt.
And doesn't answer my questions about the maillon rapide.

Nathan.H wrote: Carabiners are pretty weak if they aren't loaded along the spine.  For example a Petzl William HMS holds 23kn along the spine, but 7 kn along the gate.  That's not cross loaded.  Also the gate is super weak to inward or sideways forces.

Thanks, that's very interesting (and scary). However it doesn't answer my questions about the maillon rapide.

I F wrote: I use a steel locking carabiner and then some paracord to hold the top of carabiner to a chest harness so it is always under tension pointing up and cannot cross load.

I see.

Nathan.H wrote:That's why a BD tech guy recommend using the grigri in the small end of the BD gridlock.

Yes I know that but thanks for mentioning. For anyone reading:

Pavel Burov wrote: > 10KN limit on the minor axis

EN 362 requirements. 25kN along the major axis (gate closed and locked) and 10kN along the minor axis (gate closed). It does not mean 10kN is a minimum breaking strength and it will break apart under 10.01kN load. 10kN is not necessary a limit, it just holds 10kN load to conform to EN 362.

JFYF we have pulled some 6mm rapids with 7kN marking, they have broken under 22..25kN load.

By cross loading them? I don't think so. Also, can you backup your first statement?
If what you say is true, why are there different values for different gear? Why would some maillon rapide specifies "35", "50 kN"? Basing on your statement they should all display "25 kN" regardless of their strength.

> By cross loading them?

No.

> If what you say is true, why are there different values for different gear?

25kN/10kN are EN 363 requirements. It is OK to exceed those values.

Pavel Burov wrote: 25kN/10kN are EN 363 requirements. It is OK to exceed those values.

Indeed. My point is that in this example here: https://www.marchal-bodin.fr/mousqueton-maillon-rapide/5513-maillon-rapide-oval-10-mm-camp.html

I don't know what to understand from that 10kN on the minor axis. Is it just the minimum requirement? Is it the actual breaking point? If it's not the actual breaking point, why not write e.g. 20kN (I'm making this up), in the same way as it's done for the major axis? It makes more sense to me to read that 10kN as the actual breaking point value, and as such the maillon rapide wouldn't be ok for my purpose. But maybe I'm wrong.

Another example:
http://camp-france.fr/shop/sport/maillon-oval-10-mm-inox-2443.html
Résistance: 55/10 kN.

This one instead (from the same official CAMP website): http://camp-france.fr/shop/sport/maillon-en-d-10-mm-zingue-2451.html
Says 13kN in the minor axis.
Again: why would it say 13 for this item, and 10 for that other one? Because that's the actual breaking point value, IMHO.

The manufacturer has to mark the product with the minimum guaranteed breaking strength, up to them if they go above the standard requirements.

Jim Titt wrote: The manufacturer has to mark the product with the minimum guaranteed breaking strength, up to them if they go above the standard requirements.

S̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶f̶o̶r̶m̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶, it's important that I post here my findings.

I've been able to contact CAMP, one that sells maillons.
Their reply to my question:

CAMP wrote: No, the breaking load on the minor axis for the quick links is really around 10 kN (absolutely not around 20! (i.e. my example value in my email).
The quick links are used for permanent fixed connections (that is the main difference with "classic" carabiners).

They also said that the test for the minor axis is quite complicated and that they get values that may vary between 1 to 1,5 kN (error margin), so they rounded to 10 kN. But that's that!

 ̶S̶o̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶"̶I̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶m̶a̶i̶l̶l̶o̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶r̶o̶s̶s̶-̶l̶o̶a̶d̶,̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶s̶a̶f̶e̶!̶"̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶.̶