Ascending up rappel ropes?

In a trad situation, where one is rappelling with a bunch of gear and is using a third hand, what is the best way to pull off an unplanned ascent of the ropes with alpine draws?  Alternatives to using slings? Knots to uses? Where to connect to friction hitches?

What should one not do? (Obviously not fall and die...this being MP I know the snark is coming but try harder than that please.) Problematic knots?  Bad arrangements?

Many YouTube videos show how to ascend one rope, but two ropes passing through a rap ring is a little different.

Thanks in advance for advice and instructions.

Switch Rap device into guide mode and bitch your way up using a prussick. Tie periodic don't kill yourself knots.

If you are using plaquette that can be used in "guide mode" then flip it: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113301696/tech-tip-flipping-a-plaquette

Ben Ha wrote: Switch Rap device into guide mode and bitch my way up using a prussick. Tie periodic don't kill yourself knots. 

If the ATC guide is in rappel mode on extension, clip the guide loop directly to your belay loop.  This and one Prussik loop above you with a double length sling to step on.  

Use friction hitches to ascend ropes. Tie backup knots on the ropes, clip to your belay loop, every 8-10 feet. I assume you are asking in case you rappel past an anchor?

Haven't had to do it much but I've gotten better each time that I have.

0. This is  all easier if you extend the belay device. I extend now if it's a route that I'm not familiar with, I might have to ascend, if I'm saddlebagging the rope (don't hit other parties, wind, features to avoid having the rope get stuck in), or if it's windy.
1. Tie a catastrophe knot below your third hand. If you fuck up, you'll be glad. Both ropes as overhands on a bight with a locker to your belay loop.
2. Clip your ATC to your belay loop through the guide hole. If you didn't extend you're going to need to check you have a catastrophe knot, move your third hand (or use a second one/alpine sling) above the ATC and put a sling on it, step on the sling to unload the ATC. Clip the guide mode hole to the belay loop. Unclip your original third hand if it's still below the device
3. Ascend the rope by using the terrain and pulling slack through as you go. Make a new backup knot, clip it in, and release the old one as you feel the need to. In a free hanging rap or blank terrain you can use prusiks to move yourself back up but that's another "fun" topic.

Andy's link has a video that shows it well. You can use pre-cut prusiks, alpine slings, your cordalette, or just about any cordage to reascend the rope. If you went past a rap station, you might want to just build a gear anchor and have your partner set up the station that you passed. If so, remember to have a way to keep the rope from escaping from you so you're not stranded after your partner raps past. The easiest way I can think if is to rap before your partner who is at the station above you OR stack up below them if they need to rap to bring the strands close to you.

Wow.  I'm glad I use a regular ATC, that does not need to be in different "modes" in order to work.  Makes the process of ascending and descending so, so, so much easier and intuitive than what is written here.  My only advice.  Make catastrophe knots as one ascends, just in case you let go your break hand.  That way you don't go all the way to the bottom of the rope if you fall.

Andy Wiesner wrote: If you are using plaquette that can be used in "guide mode" then flip it: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113301696/tech-tip-flipping-a-plaquette

Thanks Andy. Did not understand flipping the device until I watched it. 

Dan Gozdz wrote: Haven't had to do it much but I've gotten better each time that I have.

0. This is  all easier if you extend the belay device. I extend now if it's a route that I'm not familiar with, I might have to ascend, if I'm saddlebagging the rope (don't hit other parties, wind, features to avoid having the rope get stuck in), or if it's windy.
1. Tie a catastrophe knot below your third hand. If you fuck up, you'll be glad. Both ropes as overhands on a bight with a locker to your belay loop.
2. Clip your ATC to your belay loop through the guide hole. If you didn't extend you're going to need to check you have a catastrophe knot, move your third hand (or use a second one/alpine sling) above the ATC and put a sling on it, step on the sling to unload the ATC. Clip the guide mode hole to the belay loop. Unclip your original third hand if it's still below the device
3. Ascend the rope by using the terrain and pulling slack through as you go. Make a new backup knot, clip it in, and release the old one as you feel the need to. In a free hanging rap or blank terrain you can use prusiks to move yourself back up but that's another "fun" topic.

Andy's link has a video that shows it well. You can use pre-cut prusiks, alpine slings, your cordalette, or just about any cordage to reascend the rope. If you went past a rap station, you might want to just build a gear anchor and have your partner set up the station that you passed. If so, remember to have a way to keep the rope from escaping from you so you're not stranded after your partner raps past. The easiest way I can think if is to rap before your partner who is at the station above you OR stack up below them if they need to rap to bring the strands close to you.

Dan, your post is very helpful.   On steep terrain where climbing the wall is difficult, do I need to step repeatedly on the sling (as in step 2) with the sling friction hitched above my ATC?  

A) move friction hitch up ropes B) high step into sling C) stand up on the sling and hold myself erect with on hand or arm D) with the other free hand pull ropes through the autoblocked ATC.  Is that it?

J-- Kaiser wrote: Wow.  I'm glad I use a regular ATC, that does not need to be in different "modes" in order to work.  Makes the process of ascending and descending so, so, so much easier and intuitive than what is written here.  My only advice.  Make catastrophe knots as one ascends, just in case you let go your break hand.  That way you don't go all the way to the bottom of the rope if you fall.

J.  The guide mode devices can be flipped to use as auto blocking progress capture, which is very easy if your rap is extended.  Whatever technique you're using with the regular ATC can be done with guide type devices too.  

A few years ago I had the same question, What was the most efficient way to ascend on TWO ropes, not one. I have never found a video yet of someone actually doing this with an ATC/Reverso.
on TWO ropes. The only time I am climbing and would be using a single line would be a fixed line to rappel in to a location that I have to use to ascend out of or an emergency situation to rappel down to someone or up to someone, or soloing big walls.
I am quite proficient at ascending a single rope with the ATC method and other methods but when you add the second rope to the ATC it becomes quite a chore. To ascend two ropes I went back to the tried and true prussiks and kleimheists. I wonder how many of the other people here that are giving you advice have actually gone out and tried it on two ropes since that is what your going to be using in the real world to get your ropes back down to you. The topic has motivated me to go back out again and see if I can make it work with the ATC.

J-- Kaiser wrote: Wow.  I'm glad I use a regular ATC, that does not need to be in different "modes" in order to work.  Makes the process of ascending and descending so, so, so much easier and intuitive than what is written here.  My only advice.  Make catastrophe knots as one ascends, just in case you let go your break hand.  That way you don't go all the way to the bottom of the rope if you fall.

Yeah, it sure sucks having a tool with roughly the same weight and size but that can be used in several different ways to better accomplish different tasks. 

Said no one but you...

I like the French Prusik - slides up the rope much easier than a regular prusik and works with a variety of webbing if you add a couple twists. This photo from my book, Advanced Rock Climbing shows it on a single rope, but it works great on doubles.
Just powering up on a regular rap device can work on low angle rock for a short distance, but isn't realistic for longer sections or vertical/overhanging terrain. Guide mode device for the lower of the 2 ascenders and the French prusik for the top is a good option, but if I have a long way to go I prefer 2 French prusiks (with backup knots). Whatever you use, taking half an hour at the crag sometime to practice is the way to be solid and know how to use these tools.

Frogmen83 wrote: A few years ago I had the same question, What was the most efficient way to ascend on TWO ropes, not one. I have never found a video yet of someone actually doing this with an ATC/Reverso.
on TWO ropes. The only time I am climbing and would be using a single line would be a fixed line to rappel in to a location that I have to use to ascend out of or an emergency situation to rappel down to someone or up to someone, or soloing big walls.
I am quite proficient at ascending a single rope with the ATC method and other methods but when you add the second rope to the ATC it becomes quite a chore. To ascend two ropes I went back to the tried and true prussiks and kleimheists. I wonder how many of the other people here that are giving you advice have actually gone out and tried it on two ropes since that is what your going to be using in the real world to get your ropes back down to you. The topic has motivated me to go back out again and see if I can make it work with the ATC.

Thanks Frogmen83.  Your point hits right at my concern.  Two rope which aren’t fixed at the high point is a little different.  I hope you will post about your experience with two ropes.  I definitely need to test this before I am high and dry. 

topher donahue wrote: I like the French Prusik - slides up the rope much easier than a regular prusik and works with a variety of webbing if you add a couple twists. This photo from my book, Advanced Rock Climbing shows it on a single rope, but it works great on doubles.
Just powering up on a regular rap device can work on low angle rock for a short distance, but isn't realistic for longer sections or vertical/overhanging terrain. Guide mode device for the lower of the 2 ascenders and the French prusik for the top is a good option, but if I have a long way to go I prefer 2 French prusiks (with backup knots). Whatever you use, taking half an hour at the crag sometime to practice is the way to be solid and know how to use these tools.

French Prusik.  New to me.  Love learning new knots.  Do you think it can work with one 9.7mm and one 8mm rope?

Chicken Head wrote:

French Prusik.  New to me.  Love learning new knots.  Do you think it can work with one 9.7mm and one 8mm rope?

If you like that, try this one gudelius.de/fb1.htm

Chicken Head wrote:

Dan, your post is very helpful.   On steep terrain where climbing the wall is difficult, do I need to step repeatedly on the sling (as in step 2) with the sling friction hitched above my ATC?  

A) move friction hitch up ropes B) high step into sling C) stand up on the sling and hold myself erect with on hand or arm D) with the other free hand pull ropes through the autoblocked ATC.  Is that it?

You got it Chicken Head. If you don't have Chauvin and Coppolillo's "The Mountain Guide Manual" it's a good read (see pp. 11-12 on flipping the plaquette).

For me it's useful to think of these things in functional terms as components of a system, so the thing at one's waist is a "progress capture device", and the thing above that is a "rope grab." There is likely more than one tool at your disposal at any given time that can perform these functions. If I understand the system, its functional components and the full utility of the tools at my disposal, then I am competent to perform more with less. It's like a good a cook can make a tasty dish even if one of the ingredients in the recipe is missing.

As a thought experiment, consider J-Kaiser’s comment above. Imagine you’re rappelling the two ropes on vertical terrain with a regular BD ATC without the guide mode anchor loop, and want to stop going down and start going up. I can think of a few ways involving more or less shenanigans to establish the progress capture function at my waist. Of course, for me, I’d rather have a guide-style plaquette in this scenario, which is one of the reasons I use one for rappelling.

As for the single vs. doubled rope question, I’ve gone up a doubled rope no problem – not much different from belaying in guide mode with two ropes, but YMMV depending on the specific device & rope diameter. 

Practice on a tree or fire escape and see what works for you.

J-- Kaiser wrote: Wow.  I'm glad I use a regular ATC, that does not need to be in different "modes" in order to work.  Makes the process of ascending and descending so, so, so much easier and intuitive than what is written here.  My only advice.  Make catastrophe knots as one ascends, just in case you let go your break hand.  That way you don't go all the way to the bottom of the rope if you fall.

How do you use your "regular" ATC to ascend the rope?

Frogmen83 wrote: A few years ago I had the same question, What was the most efficient way to ascend on TWO ropes, not one. I have never found a video yet of someone actually doing this with an ATC/Reverso.
on TWO ropes. The only time I am climbing and would be using a single line would be a fixed line to rappel in to a location that I have to use to ascend out of or an emergency situation to rappel down to someone or up to someone, or soloing big walls.
I am quite proficient at ascending a single rope with the ATC method and other methods but when you add the second rope to the ATC it becomes quite a chore. To ascend two ropes I went back to the tried and true prussiks and kleimheists. I wonder how many of the other people here that are giving you advice have actually gone out and tried it on two ropes since that is what your going to be using in the real world to get your ropes back down to you. The topic has motivated me to go back out again and see if I can make it work with the ATC.

I have done it.

The main issue is the rope diameter. If you have fat ropes, end of the reverso game. 8.1mm new ropes, ok. Or pull one rope at a time, which is not fast, but ok if you just need to get back 12ft. 

Chicken Head wrote:

Dan, your post is very helpful.   On steep terrain where climbing the wall is difficult, do I need to step repeatedly on the sling (as in step 2) with the sling friction hitched above my ATC?  

A) move friction hitch up ropes B) high step into sling C) stand up on the sling and hold myself erect with on hand or arm D) with the other free hand pull ropes through the autoblocked ATC.  Is that it?

I've only done it as practice so take my advice with that in mind, but yes. You want the prusik/kleimheist/autoblock to pretty much be as far above the ATC as you can comfortably reach with slings extending it so to a height that you can easily stand on. Using a quickdraw to the prusik can make holding it more comfortable. When you stand up you'll be pulling the ATC up a bit and will need to pull the slack out. Then you should be able to sit back into the ATC, move the prusik up, and repeat. It can take a while and be fairly tiring. 

You'll never be able to pull all of the slack out from the ATC so you'll be losing some of that progress each time you sit back. So the further you can move up with each step up, the better off you are. I almost want to try it with an extra extension to make a step up now.

FrankPS wrote:

How do you use your "regular" ATC to ascend the rope?

You go down to the bottom of the stairs and then walk up to the top of the rope.