Dynamic PAS

Acquired a Metolius Dynamic PAS and wondering about it's strength. It's rated to 15kn where my original Metolius PAS (still fine) is rated to 22kn.

Obviously the new one is 7kn weaker, but what are the odds I could take a 15kn fall messing around above an anchor? I avoid doing this wherever possible, but sometimes it's unavoidable. For example, I recently had a locker get stuck in the chains and I had to stand up ~8" above them to take my weight off and wiggle it out. Had I slipped (damp rock), I know this would amount to a factor 2 fall, but I'd think an 8-12" factor 2 fall would be only a few kN...  Is this accurate and how many kN (roughly) do you think that kind of fall would be? Is there a way to approximate?

Most importantly- 15kn is basically impossible to surpass for a PAS when used properly, right?

I read the MP thread about the release of this product where the consensus seemed to be "an upgrade from old PAS, but not worth buying if you already have the old one in good working order". It was given to me, so I'm just curious.

I wouldn't worry about it.

https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/experience-story?cid=qc-lab-personal-anchor-systems-explained

Rock Monkey wrote: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/experience-story?cid=qc-lab-personal-anchor-systems-explained

A good read. As someone who's always anchored with a Purcell, I never really considered the knot slipping would allow for a reduced load were I to slip and fall. And, considering it's a couple bucks worth of cordage to make one, a proper Purcell is the way to go, in my opinion. 

TenTon Kodiak wrote: A good read. As someone who's always anchored with a Purcell, I never really considered the knot slipping would allow for a reduced load were I to slip and fall. And, considering it's a couple bucks worth of cordage to make one, a proper Purcell is the way to go, in my opinion. 

I also like this article given how often slings are used for a PAS -> https://dmmclimbing.com/Knowledge/June-2010/How-to-Break-Nylon-Dyneema%C2%AE-Slings

Rope + Clove Hitch = Bomber PAS

Adding this article because I think the idea of not worrying about your PAS is good recipe for YGD. This article notes a PAS death. https://www.climbing.com/skills/anchors-away/

You are unlikely to generate more than 3-4kn on your dynamic PAS even on a factor two fall. At around 8k or so your innards start exploding or your back breaks. So really the 15k rating is plenty strong.

Rock Monkey wrote:

I also like this article given how often slings are used for a PAS -> https://dmmclimbing.com/Knowledge/June-2010/How-to-Break-Nylon-Dyneema%C2%AE-Slings

Rope + Clove Hitch = Bomber PAS

Adding this article because I think the idea of not worrying about your PAS is good recipe for YGD. This article notes a PAS death. https://www.climbing.com/skills/anchors-away/

Whipping on static gear is fucked up, but that's not relevant to OP.

Andrew Leaf wrote: You are unlikely to generate more than 3-4kn on your dynamic PAS even on a factor two fall. At around 8k or so your innards start exploding or your back breaks. So really the 15k rating is plenty strong.

Why on earth do you write things that are completely wrong?

Jim Titt wrote:

Why on earth do you write things that are completely wrong?

Thank you Jim. I was waiting for someone to jump on that. Which part(s) did you take issue with? I'm still new at this but from my memory, isn't it more like 10kN range where the internal injuries start to come into play. 

yer gonna die.

PAS stands for "perfectly avoidable system"

i have one hanging on my harness for the sole purpose of tethering in at rappels, but have now totally converted to clove hitching the rope into a locker at anchors.  way better.

Rock Monkey wrote:

Thank you Jim. I was waiting for someone to jump on that. Which part(s) did you take issue with? I'm still new at this but from my memory, isn't it more like 10kN range where the internal injuries start to come into play. 

Before your back bone starts to fall piece by piece into your underpants there will be a tightening knot, a deforming and slipping over your clothes harness, deforming and slipping over your body clothes, your skin and fat, and muscles. They all will dissipate energy.

X kN of shock load applied to your tether and X kN applied to your vertebrae are not the same X kN.

Josh Glantz wrote: Acquired a Metolius Dynamic PAS and wondering about it's strength. It's rated to 15kn where my original Metolius PAS (still fine) is rated to 22kn.

Obviously the new one is 7kn weaker, but what are the odds I could take a 15kn fall messing around above an anchor? I avoid doing this wherever possible, but sometimes it's unavoidable. For example, I recently had a locker get stuck in the chains and I had to stand up ~8" above them to take my weight off and wiggle it out. Had I slipped (damp rock), I know this would amount to a factor 2 fall, but I'd think an 8-12" factor 2 fall would be only a few kN...  Is this accurate and how many kN (roughly) do you think that kind of fall would be? Is there a way to approximate?

Most importantly- 15kn is basically impossible to surpass for a PAS when used properly, right?

No expert, but if you are fu(&ing around ABOVE and anchor using a non-dynamaic PAS/tether, you can certainly generate forces to hurt or kill yourself, or snap the sling. Please read some of the literature linked above. It is amazing (to me) how much force can be generated in very short falls and low FF. Not sure why you would not use a dynamic PAS if you now have one, especially if you are not trying to minimize falls on anchors.

Dynamic tethers are supposed to give impact forces of less than 10kn in a FF=2 (first fall), so still a lot of force that you don't want to come close to.

Ditch PAS and use rope anyway.

Rock Monkey wrote:

Thank you Jim. I was waiting for someone to jump on that. Which part(s) did you take issue with? I'm still new at this but from my memory, isn't it more like 10kN range where the internal injuries start to come into play. 

Because the UIIA rope standard allows 12kN and in an incident a few years ago a climber broke a karabiner and when the fall was subsequently replicated the impact was 27kN, the climber was unharmed.

Jim Titt wrote:

Because the UIIA rope standard allows 12kN and in an incident a few years ago a climber broke a karabiner and when the fall was subsequently replicated the impact was 27kN, the climber was unharmed.

How can I google the reference/source?

Here is a really good review of Metolius Dynamic PAS gearinstitute.com/first-loo…  I was unable to find the Metolius documentation on the product but if the review is accurate then this PAS is a significant upgrade and all users of static PAS should upgrade.

Relevant information:

• Meets UIAA 109 Dynamic Lanyard standard can be found here: theuiaa.org/documents/safet…;
• Max impact force 10 KN
• Hold 3 fall factor 2 falls without breaking or surpassing the 10 KN impact force
• Static breaking strength is 15 KN

Edit: Note that it is easier on the anchor than the worst case scenario of 12 KN impact force using a rope.  Not that any commercial ropes actually approach 12 KN impact force.  My rope varies between 8.1 - 9.7 depending on use mode (single vs twin).

For those of you advocating "just use the rope with a clove," how do you do that at a rappel station? With multiple rappels?

FrankPS wrote: For those of you advocating "just use the rope with a clove," how do you do that at a rappel station? With multiple rappels?

+ in a group of 3+ climbers being on jugging/hauling duty. Etc, etc, etc.

There are different climbing styles and tactics requiring different techniques.

Pavel Burov wrote:

How can I google the reference/source?

Somwhere in the DAV archives if I remember rightly, a guy rebolting a route fell onto a chain of draws which broke.

FrankPS wrote: For those of you advocating "just use the rope with a clove," how do you do that at a rappel station? With multiple rappels?

Why would anyone need a dynamic anchor when rapping? 

m Mobes wrote:

Why would anyone need a dynamic anchor when rapping? 

My point was that "just use the rope" doesn't work as a tether for rappel stations. 

But I could see where you step above the anchor to retrieve/pull the rope, then fall onto the anchor. Something dynamic would be better than a static tether, in that situation.

m Mobes wrote:

Why would anyone need a dynamic anchor when rapping? 

Many Backcountry anchor are very inconvenient where you have to lower yourself over an edge to weight the rope and anchor.  A slip could easily cause a gall factor 1+.  These anchor are very difficult to get on, often as hard as the climbing.

Not everything is straight forward sport climbing.