What is the best bolt for the long-term preservation of our rock?

I worry that maybe the climbing community is failing to think long-term very well and that climbers and developers in a generation or two will be really unimpressed with how littered many climbs will be with bolts. Also, I have done some local route development and was convinced that glue ins were the superior choice, but it seems that maybe I was swept up by a naive fad in development and that it may in fact have been the worst choice. I would like to start a conversation about the subject of route development and optimizing it for long-term preservation of our natural resources.

If I decide that long-term preservation of the rock is of top priority and supersedes all other factors then I have the following questions:   

• Are glue ins great or terrible? 
• Is there more incentive to use glue ins in soft rock? I was very surprised recently to discover them in granite at a crag in Tahoe. This seems strange to me.
• Are wedge bolts acceptable? (Again, I'm not asking under the current norms, but assuming that leaving bolts in rock is unacceptable) I was under the impression that these are removable, but in recent rebolting jobs here in the SF Bay Area it seems that they simply got chopped and new holes drilled. 
• Even if you are successful in removing a wedge bolt, that bolt hole is no longer usable at its current size, right? So if you successfully remove a 3/8" wedge bolt the damage to the bolt hole from removal means that you now must go up to a 1/2" bolt, right? Assuming that each bolt lasts 50 years, in 100 years we are now having to use bolts over 1/2", which seems not a lot of time to me. Am I correct about this? If I am, is this fine?
• Is there any bolt that can match the very expensive stainless sleeve bolt in terms of longevity and preservation of the rock?
• Maybe plated steel bolts aren't so bad considering our current alternatives appear to cause significant damage to the rock?

Glue-ins are great. They can be used in any type of rock.

Wedge-bolts (3/8" s.s.) are fine in competent rock, and can be removed. The holes can usually even be re-used without needing to drill up to 1/2"

​1/2" stainless steel bolts and 1/2" glue-ins will likely be good for 100 years, but no-one knows for certain. The technology exists currently to remove glue-ins and reuse their holes.

Plated steel 3/8" wedge and/or 5-piece bolts are not acceptable and offer no "preservation" benefit.

bheller wrote: Glue-ins are great. They can be used in any type of rock.

Wedge-bolts (3/8" s.s.) are fine in competent rock, and can be removed. The holes can usually even be re-used without needing to drill up to 1/2"

1/2" stainless steel bolts and 1/2" glue-ins will likely be good for 100 years, but no-one knows for certain. The technology exists currently to remove glue-ins and reuse their holes.

Plated steel 3/8" wedge and/or 5-piece bolts are not acceptable and offer no "preservation" benefit.

Thanks for the reply. Couple questions:

OK, let's suppose my glue ins last 100 years. 100 years after install, now what? How much of a bitch is it to remove these things? I used the popular wave bolt, has anyone removed many of these things? Considering that wedge bolts are getting chopped instead of removed despite their current ability to be pulled, it doesn't give me a huge amount of faith that anyone will take the time to pull glue ins.

What is competent rock? Does this mean some types of rock should be a no-go for wedge bolts?

Welp, at least plated steel mistakes rot away faster?

Other than that do we really have the history to know if glue is really gonna last? I certainly believe they are predicted to last longer but do we have an actual track record?

They just seem unproven and new to me?

From a ease of  Replacement standpoint.

Climb tech legacy bolts are the best torque controlled anchor

From a longevity standpoint the helix design on the bolt products twist bolt is easily than a wavebolt.

The best way to avoid needing replacement is to over spec in the first place. Wave bolts should be a 100year bolt in most non costal environments.

Whats more annoying is people continuing to use inappropriate plated steel with  a known difficult removal process and an underwhelming strength.

I have seen alot of areas established with 3/8s plated steel PB+ which are a pain to remove and have a WLL of like 4kn. Thats trash that has to go 

Well as far as I can tell the glue-in bandwagon is getting jumped on heavily. I don't deny in the slightest that they are great and a huge improvement over the days of played steel. Unfortunately/fortunately none of us will probably be around to find out what stands the test of time. I think it is important to consider the type of rock, exposure, moisture, grade of stainless, etc. to really figure out what is the best answer. Is 12mm 316 grade stainless really inferior to a glue in? uhhh, maybe...maybe not? 

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Welp, at least plated steel mistakes rot away faster?

Other than that do we really have the history to know if glue is really gonna last? I certainly believe they are predicted to last longer but do we have an actual track record?

They just seem unproven and new to me?

Well if the resin fails the bolts are easy to remove and replace. There's plenty of 60 year old boats out there and C1 Corvettes as well to show how long polyester holds out and enough anchors in the construction industry from 40 years ago for the other resins. 

100 years is kinda a long time in climbing, looking back 100 years tells us we can't predict the next 100.

FWIW, I recently asked about a custom diamond core bit. This factory in China will make them in extra long dimensions pretty cheaply. The result is a bigger hole, but that hole can still be filled with a glue-in bolt. For self-drives and Mammut ring bolts, we have been adding a stainless spacer at the lip of the hole and drilling the smaller diameter deeper into the rock when the replacement bolt is longer than the original. 

Glue-ins are good for nearly 100 years last I checked (unless goobers lower through them all the time).  That's good enough for me; in 100 years nobody's going to be climbing, we'll be shooting each other in 110 degree heat over the last bits of an Impossible Burger.

The most sustainable thing would be to just have holes in the rock, and everyone brings removable bolts. 

Removing wedge bolts is still a relatively new thing. With the right tools and know how it happens quickly.

There are still jackasses placing carbon steel bolts here in the southeast. Until that ends there will be more work to do.

I started placing stainless bolts in 1990. They are 3/8 x 2 1/4 5 piece and still look great. They will last a long time.

Ricky Harline wrote: I worry that maybe the climbing community is failing to think long-term very well and that climbers and developers in a generation or two will be really unimpressed with how littered many climbs will be with bolts. Also, I have done some local route development and was convinced that glue ins were the superior choice, but it seems that maybe I was swept up by a naive fad in development and that it may in fact have been the worst choice. I would like to start a conversation about the subject of route development and optimizing it for long-term preservation of our natural resources.

If I decide that long-term preservation of the rock is of top priority and supersedes all other factors then I have the following questions:   

• Are glue ins great or terrible? 
• Is there more incentive to use glue ins in soft rock? I was very surprised recently to discover them in granite at a crag in Tahoe. This seems strange to me.
• Are wedge bolts acceptable? (Again, I'm not asking under the current norms, but assuming that leaving bolts in rock is unacceptable) I was under the impression that these are removable, but in recent rebolting jobs here in the SF Bay Area it seems that they simply got chopped and new holes drilled. 
• Even if you are successful in removing a wedge bolt, that bolt hole is no longer usable at its current size, right? So if you successfully remove a 3/8" wedge bolt the damage to the bolt hole from removal means that you now must go up to a 1/2" bolt, right? Assuming that each bolt lasts 50 years, in 100 years we are now having to use bolts over 1/2", which seems not a lot of time to me. Am I correct about this? If I am, is this fine?
• Is there any bolt that can match the very expensive stainless sleeve bolt in terms of longevity and preservation of the rock?
• Maybe plated steel bolts aren't so bad considering our current alternatives appear to cause significant damage to the rock?

Um... these are very well worn topics in the climbing community. There's plenty of thought nationally about the topics above. searching the forums will give you answers to your questions. 

I've had people contact me who were swept up in the bolt replacement mania to tell me plated wedge anchors I placed 30 years ago were still in great shape. Obviously there are lots of examples of plated anchor failure that age too. But here's why I mention it: because they were 30 year old plated bolts in a place that sees moderate traffic, they are being replaced and upgraded. That is a significant matter.
Now, the 100 year stainless glue-ins. When exactly do the people in the future ** determine when they need to be replaced? When the manufacturer tells you they have a 100 year lifespan, they are hedging their bets by underating them significantly. 150 might be more plausible. But if a anchor is actually so old no one is around from when it was installed, who would know when it is due to be replaced?
There is something to be said about planned obsolescence with regards to safety equipment.

** we all know no one will be around to climb by then.

Something else I want to add. It wouldn't hurt at all to include a brass strip or tag with the date a route was bolted stamped on it under one of the hangers. Either at the anchors or the first bolt. Stamp kits aren't costly, hanger manufacturers could spit them out too.

David Bruneau wrote: The most sustainable thing would be to just have holes in the rock, and everyone brings removable bolts. 

So why doesn't that happen now?

Ģnöfudør Ðrænk wrote:

So why doesn't that happen now?

Because find the holes would be extremely difficult and removing current removable bolts is a pain once they have been fallen on.  

I have thought that perhaps sawing a slot in the rock for a small cam might work out.

Ricky Harline wrote: If I decide that long-term preservation of the rock is of top priority and supersedes all other factors then I have the following questions:   

It Depends (tm).   Your goal of "preservation of the rock" needs further examination.   "Rock" should not be singular.  Climbers climb on many types of rocks in a wide variety of environments.  So what is best for one type of rock in a certain environment isn't necessarily best for another combination.   Also, cost is always a factor, as is ease and speed of installation.

For example, bolts that are appropriate for alpine granite may be a poor choice for tropical limestone, and bolts that are great in a desert environment may rapidly corrode in a seaside cliff.

• Are glue ins great or terrible? 

It Depends.  I like them for a variety of reasons, but if I had to bolt on lead, I'd certainly consider expansion bolts instead.

• Is there more incentive to use glue ins in soft rock? I was very surprised recently to discover them in granite at a crag in Tahoe. This seems strange to me.

Glue ins don't cut into the top biner and create sharp edges.  Glue-ins are symmetrical, so clipping is easy from both sides and both gate orientations.  Glue-ins don't have a bolt sticking out to catch and open the gate.   Glue-ins can be removed by melting/burning the glue with a torch, and the hole re-used.

• Even if you are successful in removing a wedge bolt, that bolt hole is no longer usable at its current size, right? So if you successfully remove a 3/8" wedge bolt the damage to the bolt hole from removal means that you now must go up to a 1/2" bolt, right? Assuming that each bolt lasts 50 years, in 100 years we are now having to use bolts over 1/2", which seems not a lot of time to me. Am I correct about this? If I am, is this fine?

Geez, you shoulda been around 10 years ago when some people were saying that ten years was long enough!   In some areas, corrosion is the thing that will determine a bolt's lifespan.  In other, high traffic areas, wear and tear is the determining factor.   So don't assume one size (and material) fits all.

• Is there any bolt that can match the very expensive stainless sleeve bolt in terms of longevity and preservation of the rock?

It Depends on what the requirements are.  For example, corrosion will destroy any stainless bolt in a few years in a tropical seaside environment.  However a titanium bolt should last well over 100 years in that environment.  

• Maybe plated steel bolts aren't so bad considering our current alternatives appear to cause significant damage to the rock?

Plated steel bolts are only placed by the Devil and assholes.  

climber pat wrote: Because find the holes would be extremely difficult and removing current removable bolts is a pain once they have been fallen on.  

I have thought that perhaps sawing a slot in the rock for a small cam might work out.

The Mark Edwards "eco-placement" was a slot to take a n4 or so nut. A crap idea 25 years ago and still.

We also currently have the technology to create a type of calibrated "pull tester" that could be used to determine if any glue degradation has occured...I could envision this being used in the future. It could be used for a confirmation pull test, and if the test fails, it could simply
be pulled and replaced.

Provided new routes are recorded and reported in some manner, approximate hardware age will be easy to determine in the future.

Glue-ins are less convinient and require a greater commitment to quality control, but my experience leads me to believe they are superior to mechanical bolts in every way.
 
Second best choice would be a 1/2" x 3" 5 piece S.S.

Next would be a 1/2" x 3" wedge bolt S.S.

Next would be a 3/8" x 3" wedge bolt  S S.

Get the proper training, spend the money and time, and use glue-ins.

"If you don't have the time to do something correct the first time, what makes you think you will have the time to do it correctly the second?"

If you have some strong opinion against glue-ins then use 1/2" x 3" S.S. five pieces.

bheller wrote: We also currently have the technology to create a type of calibrated "pull tester" that could be used to determine if any glue degradation has occured...I could envision this being used in the future. It could be used for a confirmation pull test, and if the test fails, it could simply
be pulled and replaced.

Provided new routes are recorded and reported in some manner, approximate hardware age will be easy to determine in the future.

Glue-ins are less convinient and require a greater commitment to quality control, but my experience leads me to believe they are superior to mechanical bolts in every way.
 
Second best choice would be a 1/2" x 3" 5 piece S.S.

Next would be a 1/2" x 3" wedge bolt S.S.

Next would be a 3/8" x 3" wedge bolt  S S.

Get the proper training, spend the money and time, and use glue-ins.

"If you don't have the time to do something correct the first time, what makes you think you will have the time to do it correctly the second?"

If you have some strong opinion against glue-ins then use 1/2" x 3" S.S. five pieces.

I don't know that I am opposed to glue ins. I would like to remove some though to understand what future developers will deal with. I had to drill that AC100 gold bond (used for install of wave bolts) epoxy once and it was considerably harder than rock. Will it really weaken much over the years?  

Routine pull testing (say every 5 years) to log resin deterioration in TEST bolts takes an organisational level climbers don't usually achieve.
Testing bolts in routes is a disaster, they bend like shit at any meaningful load. The cavers association in the UK used to routine test all their bolts until they discovered there was a "mistake" and loosened some of them. 3500 bolts had to be replaced.
We asked the UIAA to set up a worldwide database so bolt and resin details, date etc and when they failed/ were replaced could be logged, no interest.