Beginner Question: Bolt/rivet hanger recommendations and use?

Hi,

I did my first aid climb today (and my first rope solo), and I thought it was fun-ish.  Enough that I might go back and try and get better at it.  

I did the first pitch of "The dragon's tail" near the kingfisher in the fisher towers.  It's mostly a bolt ladder with a couple of clean pieces and easy free moves.  The bolts all felt super-soild and it was a good introduction for me on how to use aiders and a fifi, and also to work out how to use a system self-belay a lead climb (I used an eddy, and while it needed a lot of minding, it was by far not the slowest part of my fumbling through the pitch).

So here's the question:

I had mostly gone out because I wanted to peek at the colorado ridge on the kindgfisher... at least from the ground, a bunch of the bolts are just studs with no hangers or nuts.  

Do the wire rivet hangers that yates make work for these kinds of bolts or is there some other tool for that?  I've never actually see one, or seen anyone use one.  I couldn't find a youtube video demonstrating how to use one.  Can these be cinched down so they "stick" on the bolt threads or something?  Are the kinds of "fifi myself to the piece and reach high" I was doing on the climb today advisable on these kinds of rivet hangers?  If I am clipping several of these in a row, should I back clean these (they don't look like they'd hold much of a fall, anyhow,).

As a side note, I looked at what I think is the start of "The Death of American Democracy" and couldn't even figure out wth someone would do to get started... I saw a bolt maybe 10M up which I assume is on the route.  I suppose that i have a lot to learn, if I can figure out how to not kill myself hauling 2 60M ropes, a rack, water, and assorted crap to the base of these things.

Use a small wired nut on the bolt.
Pull the nut down the wire to make a loop, sling the bolt with the loop and then push up the nut to cinch
the loop around the bolt. 

Gotta love these type of stud ladders (or not haha). I take a zip tie and cinch the wire against the wall... if bolts are same size the zip tie can be reused. If the bolt is very small ie 1/4 use two zip ties and use the hash tag #yourgonnadie 

Cosmiccragsman AKA Dwain wrote: Use a small wired nut on the bolt.
Pull the nut down the wire to make a loop, sling the bolt with the loop and then push up the nut to cinch
the loop around the bolt. 

Why in the world would you use a nut in a  situation where you already have a rivet hanger? 

To answer the op question, yes you use a rivet hanger  and you can move the middle swage to cinch up the loop  (like suggested above but without the extra length of the nut) To keep it cinched you can put a bit of tape below the  swage, or better, use a butterfly cinch rivet hanger 

kevin deweese wrote:

Why in the world would you use a nut in a  situation where you already have a rivet hanger? 

To answer the op question, yes you use a rivet hanger  and you can move the middle swage to cinch up the loop  (like suggested above but without the extra length of the nut) To keep it cinched you can put a bit of tape below the  swage, or better, use a butterfly cinch rivet hanger

My answer was based on the fact that if you didn't have a rivet hanger you could use a small wire stopper.
I've slung many a nutless bolt with a wired stopper.

 

The butterfly rivet hanger is the way to go, though somewhere on my rack of jingus old rivet hangers I have a homemade, filed down large washer that is slung. The idea behind these filed washers (inside edge, and only on one side so as not to cut your sling material) is to give more purchase on the threads of the stud sticking out. Definitely a pull down, not out type of situation, but it has worked in these instances.

Ryan Huetter wrote: The butterfly rivet hanger is the way to go, though somewhere on my rack of jingus old rivet hangers I have a homemade, filed down large washer that is slung. The idea behind these filed washers (inside edge, and only on one side so as not to cut your sling material) is to give more purchase on the threads of the stud sticking out. Definitely a pull down, not out type of situation, but it has worked in these instances.

Yep.
It's always good to have more than one arrow in your quiver.

 

Butterfly hangers are great, but also weaker than the regular ones (by half I think?). You'll probably want to use some stoppers as hangers on the kingfisher too because some of the bolts are sticking out pretty far and the stopper loops will fit over the hangers on the eroded bolts.

Robert Rowsam wrote: Butterfly hangers are great, but also weaker than the regular ones (by half I think?). You'll probably want to use some stoppers as hangers on the kingfisher too because some of the bolts are sticking out pretty far and the stopper loops will fit over the hangers on the eroded bolts.

Oops.
Someone else mentioned stoppers, Robert, and was shot down.

To the OP.
It is always a good idea to have more than one way to do something.
Improvising when you don't have, or not enough of specialty gear  can sometimes save your life, and help finish and accomplish your goal.
It is always GOOD to have more than one trick up your sleeve.

I mean yeah, if you can use the right tool for the job you should, but in my experience wire hangers often won't fit over a bolt hanger of a protruding bolt (especially the butterfly ones). 

Ah, thanks!

I agree that it's great to have a couple of ways of doing things.  

To clarify, there are no hangers or nuts on these bolts, basically they are just threaded studs protruding from the rock.

So I'll acquire a couple of the sliding hangers and (if I can find some) a couple of the "butterfly" hangers, and bring some zip ties and wired nuts with me next time I'm out there.  I dunno about the filed-washer idea, but if the other stuff seems insecure I will look into it in the future.  But I'll try the variety of things given here and see what works better/worse.

Op said studs not rivets. Also I agree w /Ryan the key hole hangers for rivets feel much more secure. And don’t use wired nuts unless your in a pinch.

Robert Rowsam wrote: I mean yeah, if you can use the right tool for the job you should, but in my experience wire hangers often won't fit over a bolt hanger of a protruding bolt (especially the butterfly ones). 

Lol, where’d you get those rivet hangers. I have some that are too small to fit over a bolt stud but I made them myself. Every commercially made rivet hanger I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen and purchased a lot) are large enough to fit over a bolt and if anything their loop is too large sacrificing height when used

Gavin Bridgeman wrote: Op said studs not rivets. 

Are you thinking that rivet hangers are only for rivets?

John Reeve wrote: Ah, thanks!

I agree that it's great to have a couple of ways of doing things.  

To clarify, there are no hangers or nuts on these bolts, basically they are just threaded studs protruding from the rock.

So I'll acquire a couple of the sliding hangers and (if I can find some) a couple of the "butterfly" hangers, and bring some zip ties and wired nuts with me next time I'm out there.  I dunno about the filed-washer idea, but if the other stuff seems insecure I will look into it in the future.  But I'll try the variety of things given here and see what works better/worse.

You can find the rivet hangers (what you’re calling sliding hangers) as well as butterfly hangers at mountain tools ( mtntools.com/cat/bigwall/he…)

The files washers are called Doubloons and can be purchased from Fish ( fishproducts.com/catalog/ho…)

Thanks Kevin.  The sourcing on those is very helpful.  I actually found the dubloons on Fish's site this afternoon after writing that post, but it's good to have the clarification.  After looking at them, they seem like they'd be even better for what I'm looking at doing.

I'm a web developer by trade, and all the sites (Fish, Mountain Tools, Yates) all make me want to setup better online stores for them.... of course, I'm sure that there are plenty of reasons why those site work like they do but still, that's some rough stuff :D

kevin deweese wrote:

Lol, where’d you get those rivet hangers. I have some that are too small to fit over a bolt stud but I made them myself. Every commercially made rivet hanger I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen and purchased a lot) are large enough to fit over a bolt and if anything their loop is too large sacrificing height when used

The only butterfly ones I've used are homemade, but look pretty much the same as the runout ones I've seen. 

I'm talking about getting the wire loop over a standard bolt hanger. You climb much mud? Its pretty common to find bolts sticking out a couple inches and it feels a bit better to tie it off somehow than to just clip the hanger on the end. I'm not trying to argue, maybe I have just bought shit rivet hangers. When I did the kingfisher I didn't even know what rivet hangers were and tied off all the bolts and studs with slings.

Thanks for the context, Robert... that makes a lot of sense to me.

No worries, have fun John! Should be an awesome solo.

The second pitch of the dragon's tail is good practice too. The bolts are all hangerless, but they have nuts on them that you can put the wire behind and make the river hanger more secure

John Reeve wrote: I'm a web developer by trade, and all the sites (Fish, Mountain Tools, Yates) all make me want to setup better online stores for them.... of course, I'm sure that there are plenty of reasons why those site work like they do but still, that's some rough stuff :D

All three of those sites have the old-school trustworthy site, like some professor's personal page about road signs that you know has impeccable info.

NegativeK wrote:

All three of those sites have the old-school trustworthy site, like some professor's personal page about road signs that you know has impeccable info.

Yeah, fair enough.  I mean, I know what the alternatives are, and they aren't great unless you're doing a lot of sales.

On one hand, it makes me feel slightly better about doing this stuff, because on some level it's a really dorky way of climbing and if every bro was doing it then it woulb not only destroy the climbs but the slight amount of neat-o-ness of the project would diminish... I already feel bad that I'm learning by hauling my dumb ass up over a solid line of bolts instead of doing what everyone else does and died young by splatting after pulling a rivet.

On the other hand, I wish I didn't have to do the math for how much my order on mtntools is by hand... I've written far more complex HTML forms that do stuff like that.

I'm just gonna call them tomorrow and do it over the damn phone :D