NY Climbing Access--what's being done?

I was riding the Metro North in to the city the other day and couldn't help but see the gorgeous cliffs across the Hudson. I looked it up: it's the Palisades Interstate Park, and it's completely closed to rock climbing.

I hiked up around Lake Minnewaska and looking down from the top of the cliffs I saw old pitons stuck in the rock. Those cliffs, and every other cliff in Minnewaska State Park except Dicke Barre and Peterskill, are closed to rock climbing.

Skytop is visible from my street corner. Also closed to climbing.

What efforts exist to get these places open? Has any progress been made? How can we get involved?

Go have an adventure where the climbing is only restricted by location
I might be wrong, but from what I read, no one has been exploring.                                                                                                                                                                                         (Whats that in the background!?)
you can find 3 to 5 star routes at all grades.
Some of the best locations are accessed by 5.0 to 5.4 "approach pitches"
You have to take a walk out past the Sun Bowl;  there is a 2 pitch  climb that starts at the base of the wall, 
& tops out on a summit pinnacle, (10''x10', flat "Hero point") 
This  can be climbed at either 5.11c/d (g); a 'not polished' true overhanging finger crack
or  at 5.7pg, with bulging face to a chimney/sentry box, that you have to 'escape'
There's other (better?)stuff too 
past the raptor closure , 
Another reason for the name
Or ask a crusty old crusher how to get permission to climb at Ice Caves Mnt in Ellenville,
Bought by the open space institute at the urging/partnership of the climber's lobbies to save it for climbers.
-   Re-named  Sam's Point Preserve. (anyone else know the history or who has access?)
, on the side of the entrance road!

Apparently the Palisades are a chosspile and not conducive to climbing.

David K wrote: I was riding the Metro North in to the city the other day and couldn't help but see the gorgeous cliffs across the Hudson. I looked it up: it's the Palisades Interstate Park, and it's completely closed to rock climbing.

Because for every solid hold that you can pull on there are a dozen others that will fall off if you fart near them.

I hiked up around Lake Minnewaska and looking down from the top of the cliffs I saw old pitons stuck in the rock. Those cliffs, and every other cliff in Minnewaska State Park except Dicke Barre and Peterskill, are closed to rock climbing.

PIPC is basically resistant. Many have tried over many decades.

Skytop is visible from my street corner. Also closed to climbing.

Technically not closed - you just need to go there with a guide. That won't change until the hotel wants it to. Right now that's never.

What efforts exist to get these places open? Has any progress been made? How can we get involved?

So of the three you listed, only two are viable for climbing. The land managers have been contacted for decades. Trying again might get traction or it will just piss them off (the more likely scenario).

Come on down to a GCC meeting and learn how you can help out on our initiatives in working with landowners (state and private) to increase access. www.Gunksclimbers.org

While Marc801C's comments are accurate, I do think that he is being a bit too negative and discouraging. Access work often requires a great deal of persistence over lengthy periods of time--as well as a great tolerance for frustration. However such  persistence often eventually leads to positive results. It is draining work and some folks do burn out, so that is why we always need 'fresh faces' with new energy and sometimes different approaches to keep working away on such projects. We should be encouraging those (such as David K) who express interest, to become involved not turn them off. Changes can happen, especially with public agencies such as PIPC (which is also responsible for much of the Palisades), which are susceptible to public/political pressure and  have personnel changes in relevant positions. For many years after it was acquired by PIPC there was no climbing whatsoever permitted at Minnewaska, but after a great deal of patient effort on the part of access activists Peterskill was opened for climbing and work continues in trying to gain climbing access to other parts of the Park. Private and corporate landowners present even more difficult challenges, but even in such circumstances changes do happen. Mohonk,  since it has been under corporate ownership, has 'progressed' from no climbing, to climbing only if staying at the hotel and with a guide, to, more recently, only a guide is required, so it is not unreasonable to keep working away in the hope that other 'modifications' might occur in the future.

On a side note--while much of the Palisades is correctly described as 'chossy' (and that is, perhaps, a generous assessment), I have a feeling that, as with similar traprock outcrops in the region, there are also  likely sections of quite good and very climbable rock as well.

David K wrote: I was riding the Metro North in to the city the other day and couldn't help but see the gorgeous cliffs across the Hudson. I looked it up: it's the Palisades Interstate Park, and it's completely closed to rock climbing.

I hiked up around Lake Minnewaska and looking down from the top of the cliffs I saw old pitons stuck in the rock. Those cliffs, and every other cliff in Minnewaska State Park except Dicke Barre and Peterskill, are closed to rock climbing.

Skytop is visible from my street corner. Also closed to climbing.

What efforts exist to get these places open? Has any progress been made? How can we get involved?

David K,

A couple months ago when I posted frustration over the large amount of closed areas in the gunks you responded directly to my post with the below.  Seems like quite the about face.  Maybe you realized that we have more off limits rock then we do open rock and its not that great in comparison to the percentage of open cliffs in the adirondacks?

I agree that the rules don't entirely make sense, but let's keep some perspective on how "hard" this situation really is. We still have it pretty great.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116610137/2019-peregrine-closures-in-the-gunks#ForumMessage-116620099

Matt

Lisa Madden wrote: Apparently the Palisades are a chosspile and not conducive to climbing.

I'm sure you're right. In something like ten miles of cliffs there is absolutely  nothing*  climbable ( ! ! ! ? ? ? you can definitely find stories & pictures that show otherwise  )

But by all means, stay safe and legal  ~ that's the history of climbing

mnjsan wrote:

David K,

A couple months ago when I posted frustration over the large amount of closed areas in the gunks you responded directly to my post with the below.  Seems like quite the about face.  Maybe you realized that we have more off limits rock then we do open rock and its not that great in comparison to the percentage of open cliffs in the adirondacks?

I agree that the rules don't entirely make sense, but let's keep some perspective on how "hard" this situation really is. We still have it pretty great.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116610137/2019-peregrine-closures-in-the-gunks#ForumMessage-116620099

Matt

It's not an about face at all. I still think that the Gunks is a great place to climb and we're lucky to have so much climbable rock. I also think a blanket climbing ban with bad reasons or no clear reason (which is what this thread is about) is pretty different than a temporary closure due to falcon nesting (which is what that thread is about).

It's possible to have a belief in accessibility while also being grateful for the access we do have.

Suburban Roadside wrote: 
Or ask a crusty old crusher how to get permission to climb at Ice Caves Mnt in Ellenville,
Bought by the open space institute at the urging/partnership of the climber's lobbies to save it for climbers.
-   Re-named  Sam's Point Preserve.

And promptly closed to all climbing. Thanks a lot, OSI.

They did the same thing with the former Shevchenko parcel. It's now closed by PIPC. Not just to climbing, but to any/all public access. And it was ready-made for climbing: de-trashed by GCC, has bolted top anchors, access trails, ATV accessible 90% of the way for emergency.

OSI/TNC are not the climber's friend AFAIK.

Alan Rubin wrote: While Marc801C's comments are accurate, I do think that he is being a bit too negative and discouraging. Access work often requires a great deal of persistence over lengthy periods of time--as well as a great tolerance for frustration. 

Hi Alan.
Perhaps. I was involved in a number of those outreach attempts in the 80's and 90's as well as the battle with Marriott. Yes, amazingly frustrating and positive things happen at a glacial pace.  

However such  persistence often eventually leads to positive results. It is draining work and some folks do burn out, so that is why we always need 'fresh faces' with new energy and sometimes different approaches to keep working away on such projects. We should be encouraging those (such as David K) who express interest, to become involved not turn them off.

I agree - just wanted to inject a dose of reality.

On a side note--while much of the Palisades is correctly described as 'chossy' (and that is, perhaps, a generous assessment), I have a feeling that, as with similar traprock outcrops in the region, there are also  likely sections of quite good and very climbable rock as well.

Probably but as the photo above shows, when it goes, it goes big. Seeing that there are many trails through the area, it becomes a major safety issue. I posit that the PIPC would be more likely to open up Minnewaska than the Palisades.

I know the cliffs around the lake are closed, but is there really no allowed climbing in other areas of the park? I've done stuff at xxxxxxxxxx xxxx and the xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxx back in the day, including a few Romano routes.

Gunkiemike wrote:

And promptly closed to all climbing. Thanks a lot, OSI.

They did the same thing with the former Shevchenko parcel. It's now closed by PIPC. Not just to climbing, but to any/all public access. And it was ready-made for climbing: de-trashed by GCC, has bolted top anchors, access trails, ATV accessible 90% of the way for emergency.

OSI/TNC are not the climber's friend AFAIK.

Yes, Two amazing & needed climbing areas (with long histories of climbing & other user activities) that need to be re-opened to climbers. . . 

Gunkiemike wrote:

OSI/TNC are not the climber's friend AFAIK.

In OSI's view, the best way to preserve land is to eliminate all access.

Marc801 C wrote: Hi Alan.
Perhaps. I was involved in a number of those outreach attempts in the 80's and 90's as well as the battle with Marriott. Yes, amazingly frustrating and positive things happen at a glacial pace.  
I agree - just wanted to inject a dose of reality.

Probably but as the photo above shows, when it goes, it goes big. Seeing that there are many trails through the area, it becomes a major safety issue. I posit that the PIPC would be more likely to open up Minnewaska than the Palisades.

I know the cliffs around the lake are closed, but is there really no allowed climbing in other areas of the park? I've done stuff at Gertrudes Nose and the Palmaghatt Ravine back in the day, including a few Romano routes.

FIFY

Suburban Roadside wrote:

FIFY

Why spill the beans?

Marc801 Wrote
Why spill the beans?

 Because; No one seems to be walking anywhere. The incredible Lemming-like crowding needs to be relived &  giving up a hint or two might help !
& to take all the focus off private property   ..  ..  ..   It is all on the map of a NY State Park.

Live Perch, that would be funny if it were not wrong           
 you do not know the history of climbing in the northeast. We climbers have been forced, like daycare children to play in a continuously shrinking sandbox,
 fenced off from the majority of the superior rock walls where climbers were the 1st & only user group.
So sad to see that people think climbing access is expanding, The GCC & the No Access found are in the pocket of the lawyers who answer to the deepest pockets by way of criminal constructs like the Open Space Institute that function in the shadows and steal PRIVATE LAND, WHILE DENYING CLIMBERS ACCESS TO HISTORIC CLIMBING ZONES.

Progress is being made.  Look at the Dickie Barr area in Minnewaska (that was not open some years ago) and Powerlinez was announced some years ago as being open with permit sold at the Cliffs and other gyms.  

There are stories online about the PIPC I found years ago which discussed its board’s aversion to climbing.  People grow and change, attitudes shift. These days there is next to no one in NYC with kids who has not been to a birthday party at a climbing gym.  

GCC, Access Fund, the Powerlinez people are organized and persistent.  Best thing to do is join them or let them work without having to explain trespassing adventures and other shenanigans or worse climbing accidents in off limits places. 

Just found this hunk of stellar clean gneiss today, a few miles from metro stop on undeveloped private land...best single block I’ve seen in the northeast! 360 degrees of classics up to 30’ Vhard. Probably hasn’t been touched by (self-titled) climbers. Gems await. Not sure I’d broach access convo in this case though. Any orgs or friendly privateers that might want to explore purchase?? 100-200K for an outstanding woodland circuit and a few routes on the hill above. How much resistance could neighbors put up against opening to public though, in rural zoning situation?

So, here I come, to revive an old thread. 

I just moved to the area and had the same reaction to seeing the palisades as the OP: “Can I climb these/how?”.

Trying to get caught up/understand the issues.

OSI=Open Space Initiative, who seems to take a strict no-access preservationist attitude towards a lot of their land?

PIPC=???

TNC=???

Help? Where can I learn more? Get involved in some climbing advocacy (and climbing once my shoulder is fixed) near the city?

PIPC=Palisades Interstate Park Commission, which is a joint NY-NJ agency that that controls an extensive amount of land in the extended metropolitan area, as far north as Minnewaska in the Gunks. Their  lands include many areas with past climbing activity and others with potential, but historically the Commission has been very opposed to climbing on the lands they administer. However, as a result of strong advocacy by some climbers over many years, a couple of token areas have been opened for climbing---Peterskill and Powerlinz. Climber advocates are continuing to work to open further cliffs.

TNC=The Nature Conservancy. A conservation organization similar to the OSI. As the name implies, the focus is on preservation not activity.

The best way to get involved is to contact the Access Fund. They will be able to provide you with contact information for those working on access issues in the NY/NJ region--most likely an (another set of initials) LCO ( Local Climbers Organusation).

JK- Branin wrote:

So, here I come, to revive an old thread. 

I just moved to the area and had the same reaction to seeing the palisades as the OP: “Can I climb these/how?”.

Trying to get caught up/understand the issues.

OSI=Open Space Initiative, who seems to take a strict no-access preservationist attitude towards a lot of their land?

PIPC=???

TNC=???

Help? Where can I learn more? Get involved in some climbing advocacy (and climbing once my shoulder is fixed) near the city?

Check out the Gunks Climbers' Coalition and Torne Valley Climbers' Coalition to get more involved in climbing advocacy and expansion projects.

OSI (Open Space Institute) definitely doesn't have a preservationist attitude but does promote much more passive recreation on its lands than ones requiring more facilities. They have land all along the Eastern U.S. so the less money they spend on each property the more they can buy (theoretically). In NY they do a lot of land transfer sales to NYS Parks and such which is really good. Parts of the Gunks were/are owned by OSI so they do a lot for climbing.

PIPC is the Palisades Interstate Park Commission which was created to manage the lands in the Palisades region of Northern NJ and Southern NY back in the early 1900s from quarrying along the Hudson in order to preserve its beauty; the cliffs you see from Metro-North. These are all choss and quite unsafe with multiple attempts to entice climbing access but because of the rock quality, it is futile. 

TNC is The Nature Conservancy. I think they are similar to OSI and buy up lands to conserve and allow passive recreation. Looking at their property map, not much in the Hudson Valley but a lot all around.