Body control training

I'm interested in how and whether people here train what we might call "body control."  

A little background:
I come from an endurance sport background and have always been very focused on and interested in training.  I also have a history of lower-body arthritis; I have very poor flexibility in my lower body, primarily my hips.  My interest has always been in long trad and alpine routes, which has been reflected in my training.

Even when I've been in excellent shape in terms of cardiovascular endurance and general strength, my climbing ability has rarely improved.  At times, I've been able to run up slopes with a pack and do plenty of pullups, with no effect on my actual climbing ability.  I know where some of my weaknesses lie: I have poor flexibility, poor technique, and relatively weak grip strength.  I know I need to climb more, do technique drills, and probably yoga or at least targeted stretching to address these weaknesses.

But lately I've realized that I also have poor motor control, especially when it comes to any kind of lateral or backward movement (basically, my body is good at propelling itself forward and nothing else).  For instance, I can hang straight-arm and place my feet accurately at holds in front of me, but fail miserably when the holds are not directly in front of my body.  I lack lateral control of my legs.  Similarly, I can do pushups, but any type of similar movement that is slightly off-balance or offset is almost impossible.  

Some of this may be down to a weak core or non-functional core strength.  I do plenty of situps and core work, but it is all non-functional -- crunches, oblique crunches, back extensions, rather than movements that mimic climbing needs (slow, controlled movement; leg control; stability in a variety of body positions).  

I am wondering whether and how people train body control or motor control of this kind.  Yoga could help both with flexibility and body control, and more climbing could definitely help.  But what else is out there?  I recently came across this, which emphasizes movement training ( gmb.io/programs/).  But I am sure there are other programs or approaches.  Would love to hear experiences or ideas.

The classic advice for improving movement is just to boulder, and I think if you haven't spent a good amount of time bouldering, you should do that before even looking at anything. A lot of stuff will fall into place just from trying to pull hard moves, because you won't be able to pull them without at least somewhat decent technique.

Before too long, I'd look at Neil Gresham's Masterclass (it's a series of videos, that link is just the first one). That takes you through what the basic techniques of climbing are, so you have the basic terminology and idea of what each one is. I say look at this before too long, because it contains some stuff that beginner climbers tend to not come up with on their own just by bouldering (like flagging).

Beyond learning what the basic techniques are, I've spent a lot of time looking at ways to train technique, and I can't say I've found much. The best resource I've found was Rock Climbing Technique: A Practical Guide to Movement Mastery by John Kettle. It has a bit of background for each technique, along with some very practical drills for improving your technique. A lot of folks recommended Training for Climbing and The Self-Coached Climber, and while they both do include some useful sections on movement training, they're nowhere near as in-depth as John Kettle's book (I do recommend both books for their other training information, though).

EDIT: I've gotten some really major flexibility gains from doing the stretches from the MIT Tae Kwon Do club (the stretch routine is under "Working toward the splits"). For finger strength, you can't beat hangboarding: Training for Climbing goes pretty in-depth on this.

I've been doing thenx calisthenics lately in an effort to get ready for fall and they've been certainly making me feel stronger. My motivations were more targeted at working on recruiting strength more quickly/building fast twitch. My primary sport for years has been distance running so explosiveness is pretty much non-existent.

In my experiences, these calisthenics workouts tend to put load on the muscles by pushing your body out of balance and then release the load by bringing it back into balance (not always but often). For example, typewriter pullups or swinging planks or windshield wipers (those hanging leg raises that swing from side to side). Seems like exercises like these really connect the strength to movement in multiple directions.

Maybe this is all bs though, I'm no trainer

Huh. My experience is that climbing has drastically improved my body movement and awareness in day to day life, especially compared to my "peers" as an old lady. And, that started early on. My feet are precise, my hands are sure...and I do things like flag to get into the bottom drawer of the fridge, heel hook on the edge of the bed to haul out in the morning, etc. without even thinking about it.

It also helped to get Physical Therapist assigned exercises for arthritic knees that straightened out my gait and strengthened everything south of my rib cage, lol! Your arthritis may well have had you messed up more than you know. I am actually much stronger and more mobile now, than in 2016, when I went to the PT peeps the first time. I've gone from one knee not bending even 90 degrees, to almost getting my butt to the floor, in a squat.

TLDR? Climb more. Maybe with someone coaching, or video yourself and see what you actually do, and what you need to work on.

Best, Helen

builttospill wrote: I'm interested in how and whether people here train what we might call "body control."  

A little background:
I come from an endurance sport background and have always been very focused on and interested in training.  I also have a history of lower-body arthritis; I have very poor flexibility in my lower body, primarily my hips.  My interest has always been in long trad and alpine routes, which has been reflected in my training.

Even when I've been in excellent shape in terms of cardiovascular endurance and general strength, my climbing ability has rarely improved.  At times, I've been able to run up slopes with a pack and do plenty of pullups, with no effect on my actual climbing ability.  I know where some of my weaknesses lie: I have poor flexibility, poor technique, and relatively weak grip strength.  I know I need to climb more, do technique drills, and probably yoga or at least targeted stretching to address these weaknesses.

But lately I've realized that I also have poor motor control, especially when it comes to any kind of lateral or backward movement (basically, my body is good at propelling itself forward and nothing else).  For instance, I can hang straight-arm and place my feet accurately at holds in front of me, but fail miserably when the holds are not directly in front of my body.  I lack lateral control of my legs.  Similarly, I can do pushups, but any type of similar movement that is slightly off-balance or offset is almost impossible.  

Some of this may be down to a weak core or non-functional core strength.  I do plenty of situps and core work, but it is all non-functional -- crunches, oblique crunches, back extensions, rather than movements that mimic climbing needs (slow, controlled movement; leg control; stability in a variety of body positions).  

I am wondering whether and how people train body control or motor control of this kind.  Yoga could help both with flexibility and body control, and more climbing could definitely help.  But what else is out there?  I recently came across this, which emphasizes movement training ( gmb.io/programs/).  But I am sure there are other programs or approaches.  Would love to hear experiences or ideas.

This sounds more like a nuero issue dealing with proprioception. In order to have proper control for the precise movements of climbing, you need "functional" muscle groups, held together by healthy fascia that work together. Muscle imbalances could be an issue as well.

See book: "Anatomy Trains" for further details. 

Definitely going to check out the John Kettle book and the Neil Gresham videos.  I already bought the Kettle book, and I think there are some things there that will help me immediately.

master gumby: can you elaborate on why you think it might be a neuro issue and what that would mean or what it would look like?  The inability to put my feet accurately on holds off-center does sound kind of concerning, but I've always chalked it up really tight hips, and weak muscles that control lateral movement (as I said, my body is built to move forward).  For instance, I often get cramps in my hip flexors when I stem in positions that normal people would consider comfortable.

tie xmas bells to the pull on tabs.  if you hear them jingle, you're too spastic.
that's some Romanian shit right thurr.

This is my opinion, based on my own experiences with similar issues.

Yoga: yes. But do the right yoga. Most yoga studios exist to make flexible people feel good about themselves. The old styles are better for your needs - look into Iyengar or Ashtanga. If no one is specifically advertising that in your area, try to find a teacher who goes very slowly (holding poses for a long time) , who focuses on alignment and cueing. Really, yoga isn't anything special - you could get the same results hiring a good personal trainer who focuses on alignment and cueing. But the popularity of yoga and the way different branches are named makes it easier to find what you are looking for at an affordable price.

Strength Training: also yes. But do the right kind of strength training. More importantly, do it with the right attitude. You aren't here to destroy yourself and get a high score. You are here to practice being as strong as possible, learning to use your body as a single, cohesive unit. Feel the tension start at your fingertips, to your palms, through your forearms, your chest; your shoulders, down your spine, around the knees, through the calves, ankles, and toes, all in a single interconnected network. Surprisingly, this kind of strength training feels remarkably like the yoga I described earlier. I'm a fan of the work of Dan John and Pavel Tsatsouline here. I would recommend reading their books and following their training programs, particularly Easy Strength or Simple and Sinister.

Focused Climbing Practice: yes.  I would cleave this concept into two general types of practices.
 
The first practice is hyperfocused easy climbing, and it should form the bulk of your climbing-specific training time. It is best if you can boulder (like a traverse or repeating a problem) for this, since few partners will have the patience to put up with you on a rope. The climbing should be very, very easy - you should be able to climb forever more or less. This might sound boring, but it should not be, since you will be concentrating so much on your climbing technique. You can do the classic drills like silent feet, sticky hands, X side in, straight arms, etc. These are a good starting point, especially silent feet. However, these days I prefer to pick a particular movement pattern where I am lacking and focusing on that. For example, keeping core tension while breathing, breathing deeply, taking weight off my hands, digging my feet into footholds, putting weight onto my hands, shifting my hips to achieve a more stable position, keeping my shoulders in a strong position, sinking down on my legs, making every move completely static, making every move dynamic with a crisp finish (crisp, not sloppy). The list is infinite, and you can tailor it to your weaknesses.

The second practice is hard bouldering. Lots of people say that, to get better at climbing, you should boulder - and they are right. But again, you should boulder the right way. Unfortunately, many gyms these days are not conducive to good bouldering training. For one, they set in the world cup style - big moves to slopers. This rarely happens outside, so it is not good training for outdoor climbing. Additionally, most boulders in the megagyms these days are tall and sustained - it's more like climbing a short route than climbing a boulder problem. Good bouldering training in the gym is similar to bouldering outside. Often when bouldering outside, the whole boulder is a single move. So you get a group of people together, you sit around the boulder, and you work that move. This means that you are hyperfocused on learning *one thing*, and it means you get plenty of rest between attempts, in addition to the feedback you fellow climbers will give you. Outdoor bouldering is best for this, but if you are stuck in a comp-y gym, you can get a decent simulation by trying routes that are way above your pay grade - for example, if you typically climb v3 in the gym, find a v7 and work it. You probably can't pull a single move, so pick one move and work it. Most gymgoers want instant gratification, so you probably won't have anyone working it with you, so consider timing your rests to ensure you can give your full effort to each attempt. While you rest, you can think about why you came off last time, and what to focus on so it doesn't happen again. Like "squeeze the right glute hard, stomp the foothold, drive the knee out and push the hips into the wall" or "karate chop with the tricep to hold the pinch". Try visualizing, it works! When you find something you simply can't do, that would be a good thing to practice during your easy climbing.

I've heard a lot of good things about Functional Patterns - it's fitness focused on bettering mobility through functional movements.  I'm sure you can find some videos that will help here on not only flexibility, but coordination. Stuff like this combined with Yoga should really help.  Also try bouldering more, it will help you focus more on technique and efficiency. Lastly, I saw you also mentioned grip strength, for that I'd check out Crimped Out where you can find a ton of stuff that will help with forearm and hand strength and durability.

Hope this helps    happy climbing!

You might be interested in what this trainer Nick Curson is doing. He is very focused on proprioception and motor neuron development in complex motion (multiple planes of motion, lots of stimulus, rather than repetitive motions in a single plane):
https://www.instagram.com/speedofsport/?hl=en

His training modality is an evolution of the work of Marv Marinovich, which is an evolution of Russian training philosophies. Marv wrote an excellent book about it called ProBod X. There is also an episode of Joe Rogan Experience with Nick Curson from a few years ago which I would recommend.

I agree with Master Gumby that Anatomy Trains is an essential text, kinda deep though. I read it years ago and was overwhelmed, but I've come back to it now that I'm in massage school and studying anatomy.

I have also started taking Feldenkrais classes, and while it probably doesn't line up with your idea of "training", it is really helpful for tuning in to your body and movement patterns. You focus on making small movements with high awareness to regain control over areas that have gone "offline" so to speak. There are some good Feldenkrais ATM (awareness through movement) lessons online if you're interested.

Brice C wrote: 
The second practice is hard bouldering. Lots of people say that, to get better at climbing, you should boulder - and they are right. But again, you should boulder the right way. Unfortunately, many gyms these days are not conducive to good bouldering training. For one, they set in the world cup style - big moves to slopers. This rarely happens outside, so it is not good training for outdoor climbing. Additionally, most boulders in the megagyms these days are tall and sustained - it's more like climbing a short route than climbing a boulder problem. Good bouldering training in the gym is similar to bouldering outside. Often when bouldering outside, the whole boulder is a single move. So you get a group of people together, you sit around the boulder, and you work that move. This means that you are hyperfocused on learning *one thing*, and it means you get plenty of rest between attempts, in addition to the feedback you fellow climbers will give you. Outdoor bouldering is best for this, but if you are stuck in a comp-y gym, you can get a decent simulation by trying routes that are way above your pay grade - for example, if you typically climb v3 in the gym, find a v7 and work it. You probably can't pull a single move, so pick one move and work it. Most gymgoers want instant gratification, so you probably won't have anyone working it with you, so consider timing your rests to ensure you can give your full effort to each attempt. While you rest, you can think about why you came off last time, and what to focus on so it doesn't happen again. Like "squeeze the right glute hard, stomp the foothold, drive the knee out and push the hips into the wall" or "karate chop with the tricep to hold the pinch". Try visualizing, it works! When you find something you simply can't do, that would be a good thing to practice during your easy climbing.

Moon, tension or kilter board all work well for this. A spray wall also works, hard part there is that you have to come up with problems and we tend to make them suit our strengths. A spray wall with a partner who has far different strengths can be a great thing. 

builttospill wrote: Definitely going to check out the John Kettle book and the Neil Gresham videos.  I already bought the Kettle book, and I think there are some things there that will help me immediately.

master gumby: can you elaborate on why you think it might be a neuro issue and what that would mean or what it would look like?  The inability to put my feet accurately on holds off-center does sound kind of concerning, but I've always chalked it up really tight hips, and weak muscles that control lateral movement (as I said, my body is built to move forward).  For instance, I often get cramps in my hip flexors when I stem in positions that normal people would consider comfortable.

Ok. Thats quite a broad subject, but in short the brain sends signals to the muscles that you want to fire. Proprioceptors are in the joints. If you have a nuero issue, muscles (nerves run through muscles like a web) will stop firing properly, fascia will deteriorate and become "stiff" and you'll lose muscle functionality and joint mobility. Now please dont take this as an end all, I have grossly oversimplified this.

Personally, from what i have been taught and read, most, if not all, of the issues in the extremities stem from 1.) the pelvis then 2.) the spine.

Without actually being able to take a look and just by reading, impossible to diagnose. Look into the book i mentioned above (Anatomy trains) and look into the "ELDOA" method as a myfascial stretch and nuero/musclur/proprioception excersize tool. Also lastly, build some sort of PT routine in that requires multiple muscle groups to work at the same time (kettle bell windmills, bridge the gap for your foot with bent over row w/ offset weight, half kneeling cable lift w/ extension, etc....) . This will help with the nuero component.

My 2 cents, which is probably worth nothing.

Edit: Sam - I missed your post earlier, to your point on anatomy trains being dense; don't read it like a text book. Or that is my recomendation, read it for a general base and understanding, unless your are going to PT, massage, etc.... school.

For a general note, I usually stay away from "rock climbing" PT books. Sorry just not that advanced when compared to other sports. Training for the new alpinism is good for cardio and tips and points, but personally think it lacks for those building a base and working in "functional" excersizes to deal with the huge load you are putting on your body.

Bad shoulder? Look for a baseball PT, those dudes know the shoulder (see eric cressey's blog)
Bad hips/Knee? see someone who works with runners.

You get the point.

Again, I agree with Gumby. I do ELDOA quite often, and it has helped with proprioception and regaining control over movement (among other things).  

Nick Drake wrote:

Moon, tension or kilter board all work well for this. A spray wall also works, hard part there is that you have to come up with problems and we tend to make them suit our strengths. A spray wall with a partner who has far different strengths can be a great thing. 

I agree. Really if you're in a megagym, it might be better to avoid the bouldering altogether and stick to the boards and the weightroom, and maybe the yoga studio if they have a good instructor.

Arthritis and movement also made me think of Thai Chi. Not in vogue lately, yoga sorta eclipsed it, but the slow movement is great for balance and precision.

Best, Helen