How tight is too tight in climbing shoes?

I'm trying to decide between Solution 40s and 40.5s for my first performance shoe.  The larger size are comfortable on my feet right out of the box, but I've had problems with shoes stretching so they feel sloppy, so I'm considering the smaller size.  However, the 40s are decidedly uncomfortable.  They're fine just having them on my feet, but the toes are definitely squished and there's some tightness across the Achilles when I actually stand on them.  I always hear people say that shoes should not be painful, but then also say that they may be uncomfortable out of the box.  So, based on this, which would you recommend?  Thanks.

40.5

Dear God this title deserves an award!!!!

There are more shoes than solutions in the world. Try another shoe if you've got hot spots. New shoe should be snug everywhere. Standing on flat ground in a performance shoe is a horrible judges of fit, inside edge on your big toe and see how they feel. FWIW skwamas stretch a ton and the toe box gets pretty comfy, solutions do not. 

Solutions might have too much of knuckled up big toe fit for a first performance shoe as well. 

I was the same, but if the shoe fits it shouldn't get sloppy. I loved the Skwama once broken in because it was soft, yet had some power and support, however, unless I size it all the way down to a 40 it ends up having some slop. Same with the Instinct line. I have worn a Solution in 41 and wouldn't go lower and it has zero hotspots.  Right now I wear 9.5 Hiangles and could go down to 9, but I have zero slop anywhere in the shoe. Things are always tight the first week, but break in fine.

This tells me that the Skwama and Instinct were just never for me and not the right shape.

Ondra wears 4.5-5 sizes down

What kind of climbing do you want to do with them? Unless you really are doing hard overhangs I would stay a way.

My first "performance" shoe were muiras. Friggin awesome all around/edging shoe. But I climb outside mostly and do not boulder much/there are not many overhangs around here. With that being said, when I go to Rumney they still kill it on the steeps. 

As one of my hero's says, "It's not the landing gear its the pilot".

  #9

Nick Drake wrote: There are more shoes than solutions in the world. Try another shoe if you've got hot spots. New shoe should be snug everywhere. Standing on flat ground in a performance shoe is a horrible judges of fit, inside edge on your big toe and see how they feel. FWIW skwamas stretch a ton and the toe box gets pretty comfy, solutions do not.

Solutions might have too much of knuckled up big toe fit for a first performance shoe as well. 

Here's something that says that they stretch substantially and should be sized down.  This post corroborates that conclusion, but this one disagrees, as do you. I am trying to do my research, but there's so much conflicting info.

El Duderino wrote:

Here's something that says that they stretch substantially and should be sized down.  This post corroborates that conclusion, but this one disagrees, as do you. I am trying to do my research, but there's so much conflicting info.

Well it's levels of stretch, it's a combo of lined leather and synthetic lorica. That's much more of "molding to your foot" than true stretching. Width wise you will get some out of them, length wise not so much. I've made the mistake of going stupid tight on shoes like this (where you have to wear a plastic bag to slide your foot in the first few times. You end up stretching the rand past the end of the sole at the tip of your toe. You also can't smear/smedge at all when you go that tight, it becomes edging only and generally stays incredibly uncomfortable. 

The more you downsize the more pressure there is for stretch.

Karl Walters wrote: The more you downsize the more pressure there is for stretch.

If they are only slightly too small, you can use a mechanical device to loosen them up a bit.  But if they are too big, there is no recourse, you can't shrink them.

Buck Rio wrote:

If they are only slightly too small, you can use a mechanical device to loosen them up a bit.  But if they are too big, there is no recourse, you can't shrink them.

Well, Germans can always just wear socks in their shoes... ;)

Nick Drake wrote:

Well it's levels of stretch, it's a combo of lined leather and synthetic lorica. That's much more of "molding to your foot" than true stretching. Width wise you will get some out of them, length wise not so much. I've made the mistake of going stupid tight on shoes like this (where you have to wear a plastic bag to slide your foot in the first few times. You end up stretching the rand past the end of the sole at the tip of your toe. You also can't smear/smedge at all when you go that tight, it becomes edging only and generally stays incredibly uncomfortable. 

Definitely not that bad.  I can get my foot in the shoe with little difficulty and most of the pain on the smaller size is in the width.  

The more the big toe is bent the higher the performance. As mentioned they don’t stretch lengthwise much. Flat big toe = all day comfort shoe for long easy trad. Slight bend = good all around shoe. Medium bend = what you are looking for, performance but not painful. Severe bend / almost cramped = high performance edging but uncomfortable and worn for a short time on specific climbs.

Also as mentioned try different brands. They are built on different lasts (wooden model of a foot). If their last last matches your foot shape they’ll be great. If it doesn’t (too narrow or wide or wide heel or high arch, etc) it will never fit right.

I was really hoping this was a yoga pants thread 

The best advice ever:

Your Climbing Shoes are too Tight

I have permanent big toe issues from too many too tight shoes. Don't be like me. I see that you mostly climb 5.10/5.11, V3/V4. You don't need mega aggressive or tight shoes.

You need better technique (myself included). 

Malcolm Daly wrote: The best advice ever:

Your Climbing Shoes are too Tight

Good article - use this advice OP or suffer the consequences. 

I’m a true noob, but I do own a pair of solutions. I’ve only climbed on real rock once (loved it, there will be much more in my future) so nearly all of my experience with them is gym climbing. They’re a solid shoe, but will never be what I would call comfortable. Actually, they hurt like hell for the first 2 weeks or so that I owned them. They will break in some though and I can now wear them for an hour, sometimes two, before needing to peel them off to give my feet 5-10 minutes of rest. My advice is to go with the half size down from “comfortable right out of the box” and just deal with the pain the first week or so (better than realizing after a week they’re too big and worthless). Take them off frequently and give your feet a break when possible. That said, if you’re using these for anything other than bouldering or quick single pitch routes, get a different shoe. As much as I like my pair, I would never climb anything that would require me to keep them on for more than an hour.