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How to tell if a bolt is safe?

Original Post
Charlie Martz · · Fort Collins · Joined May 2017 · Points: 45

So I was climbing last weekend at a new crag and doing some routes that are harder for me, and I was taking a lot. After weighting the system a lot of the bolts would be much looser than before I weighted them. One route in particular kinda spooked me, after I lowered, (I had left a few draws in for directionals) my buddy was following and when he grabbed the first draw the nut, washer and hanger fell off the bolt in his hand. Is this normal or am I justified in being a bit spooked? Kinda makes me appreciate being able to place my own gear tbh, not having to worry about weather or not a hanger is going to fall off randomly.

Nathan Sullivan · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Sep 2018 · Points: 0

Is this crag around here?  It might be nice to state the name, so we can avoid it...

That's not normal, by the way.  Bolts shouldn't move if they are placed correctly.  Are the actual bolts loose, or just the hangers?

Peter Thomas · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2018 · Points: 239
Charlie Martz wrote: So I was climbing last weekend at a new crag and doing some routes that are harder for me, and I was taking a lot. After weighting the system a lot of the bolts would be much looser than before I weighted them. One route in particular kinda spooked me, after I lowered, (I had left a few draws in for directionals) my buddy was following and when he grabbed the first draw the nut, washer and hanger fell off the bolt in his hand. Is this normal or am I justified in being a bit spooked? Kinda makes me appreciate being able to place my own gear tbh, not having to worry about weather or not a hanger is going to fall off randomly.

There are a lot of resources on this including through the Access Fund and American Safe Climbing Association. There are also a lot of folks in the front range area that do bolt stewardship. If you post the crag/routes one of us can go check it out and replace bad bolts, or more likely just tighten the nuts. if it's just a loose nut that's easy to fix. if the bolt itself is loosening, thats sketchy. Ultimately no bolt is 100%

TaylorP · · Pump Haus, Sonora · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0
Charlie Martz wrote: So I was climbing last weekend at a new crag and doing some routes that are harder for me, and I was taking a lot. After weighting the system a lot of the bolts would be much looser than before I weighted them. One route in particular kinda spooked me, after I lowered, (I had left a few draws in for directionals) my buddy was following and when he grabbed the first draw the nut, washer and hanger fell off the bolt in his hand. Is this normal or am I justified in being a bit spooked? Kinda makes me appreciate being able to place my own gear tbh, not having to worry about weather or not a hanger is going to fall off randomly.

Charlie, it sounds like you broke the bolts from too much hang-doggin. Start climbing harder and don't put so much weight on those poor bolts. You know people pay for those right? Kids these days....

climberish · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

My go-to is fresh virgins blood diluted in holy water... squirt some on the point and wait 5 minutes. If the blood/water mixture starts to steam and boil off the bolt then you should probably avoid it. Otherwise take them whips... it also is great for de-rusting those babies. 

Dan Gozdz · · Louisville, CO · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 1

Based on his tick history I'm going with: All Locations  > Colorado  > Ft Collins > Lory SP > Arthur's Rock > Overlook > The Giggle Maker  "1st hangar fell off"

Bring a small adjustable wrench or a nut tool that has the common sizes on it. If nothing else, finger tighten loose nuts and they should stay on. Based on how recently the area was added, I'm guessing these are new bolts or rebolts. No bolt is 100%. Just wait until you hit the real sketchy stuff like rusty 1/4" bolts with homemade hangers and cold shuts that likely don't go very deep into the rock. Overall the front range bolts are quite good and well maintained due to the number of maintainers and popularity of the sport here, at least at most popular crags.

climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286

Sounds like the installer was incompetent and needs a lesson on placing bolts and a torque wrench and maybe the right sized drill bit and a hole brush and blow tube..  Who knows what is the matter.  It could be the nuts are just loose and most of the previous poster think.  It could be much worse.  

I came across a spinner that i tried to tighten but it would not tighten.  So i came back with a funkness device and pulled the bolt with the 1st gentle swing.  Turns out the installer had damaged the cone and it could not be tightened down.  

All spinners are suspect and a series of spinners are even more suspect calling into question the installer's competence 

Lena chita · · OH · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,667

I’m not familiar with the area, but based on the crag description, and the recent time of addition to MP, I’m guessing that it is a new climbing area, with relatively-recently bolted routes.

It is not unheard of for the stainless steel bolts to loosen when they are newly-placed. Sometimes to the point of coming out. There have been several instances at the RRG in the past few years, as more developers switch to stainless.
(The old plated bolts rusted in place really quickly, but the stainless ones don’t).

The proposed solution is to carry a wrench and tighten any spinners you come across, before they get so loose that they come out. The solution has its own pitfalls, but...

Yes, climbing is dangerous, you climb at your own risk, bolts can loosen and come out, or bolts can rust out and break. 

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160

i never understood why people who bolt dont toss the nut that comes with the bolt and just buy a handfull of grade 8 hardened stop nuts at someplace like tractor supply. they wont back off the stud even if the bolt loosens in the rock a tad, youll notice hanger spin instead of it falling off completely.

Peter Thomas · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2018 · Points: 0
EFS wrote: i never understood why people who bolt dont toss the nut that comes with the bolt and just buy a handfull of grade 8 hardened stop nuts at someplace like tractor supply. they wont back off the stud even if the bolt loosens in the rock a tad, youll notice hanger spin instead of it falling off completely.

Grade 8 steel is carbon steel, and shouldn’t go on stainless bolts. You can probably get the same nut in stainless, but it would be pricey. A properly torqued bolt shouldn’t readily loosen.

Charlie Martz · · Fort Collins · Joined May 2017 · Points: 45
TaylorP wrote:

Charlie, it sounds like you broke the bolts from too much hang-doggin. Start climbing harder and don't put so much weight on those poor bolts. You know people pay for those right? Kids these days....

Lol Taylor good point, next time I'll just rig a hammock off the bolt at the base so we don't have to worry about it.

Charlie Martz · · Fort Collins · Joined May 2017 · Points: 45
Dan Gozdz wrote: Based on his tick history I'm going with: All Locations  > Colorado  > Ft Collins > Lory SP > Arthur's Rock > Overlook > The Giggle Maker  "1st hangar fell off"

Bring a small adjustable wrench or a nut tool that has the common sizes on it. If nothing else, finger tighten loose nuts and they should stay on. Based on how recently the area was added, I'm guessing these are new bolts or rebolts. No bolt is 100%. Just wait until you hit the real sketchy stuff like rusty 1/4" bolts with homemade hangers and cold shuts that likely don't go very deep into the rock. Overall the front range bolts are quite good and well maintained due to the number of maintainers and popularity of the sport here, at least at most popular crags.

Correct. Bolts are new.

I'm not really sure what is normal vs not normal. The rock in this area is quite crumbly and I believe most of the bolts were beyond hand tight, however after taking on one it would loosen up and need to be re-tightened. The area is basically brand new so I'm not sure if's just one of those things that has to be done with new bolts or not. A lot of these routes have less than ten ticks on them. 
TaylorP · · Pump Haus, Sonora · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0
Charlie Martz wrote:

Lol Taylor good point, next time I'll just rig a hammock off the bolt at the base so we don't have to worry about it.

I thought I taught you better than that Charlie. you need it rig it across the approach trail/block the space under half the crag. duh

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Peter Thomas wrote:

Grade 8 steel is carbon steel, and shouldn’t go on stainless bolts. You can probably get the same nut in stainless, but it would be pricey. A properly torqued bolt shouldn’t readily loosen.

most bolts found on older climbs, unless replaced or done correctly the first time, are not stainless. sure today there are more stainless, because people get bitched at now for  not using stainless to begin with, but almost no one used to use stainless on old bolts. use common discretion, and replace with what should be used, it was a generalized comment. and a stop nut in stainless is not expensive. actually they are pretty cheap. youre assuming the bolt is stainless ....


properly torqued has nothing to do with it. anything could make the bolt loosen a little even if installed perfectly.age, or repeated falls could move a bolt slightly and let a nut loosen, etc....im just saying a stop nut could prevent the hanger and bolt from falling off completely, and if the bolt does move outward, even a hair, the hanger will spin but still be there, at least it would give someone a signal to check the tightness....ive come across many bolts that were loose that were never before on climbs ive been on other times. and have replaced bolts, or just nut and hangers if the bolt appeared sound.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
EFS wrote: i never understood why people who bolt dont toss the nut that comes with the bolt and just buy a handfull of grade 8 hardened stop nuts at someplace like tractor supply. they wont back off the stud even if the bolt loosens in the rock a tad, youll notice hanger spin instead of it falling off completely.

Don´t use locknuts on bolts for climbing.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 148
EFS wrote: i never understood why people who bolt dont toss the nut that comes with the bolt and just buy a handfull of grade 8 hardened stop nuts at someplace like tractor supply. they wont back off the stud even if the bolt loosens in the rock a tad, youll notice hanger spin instead of it falling off completely.

You ever wonder why not one single climbing distributor of wedge bolts or manufacturer of wedge bolts does this?

Occam's razor: Because its a bad idea.
Daniel Winder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 101

Totally normal for hangers to fall off randomly. Climb on

Pnelson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 635

Good lord, loose nuts and spinning hangers are not necessarily signs that the "bolts are loose."

The LCO I'm part of gets messages all the time about "bad bolts" that turn out just to be loosened nuts.  Carry a small wrench and tighten down by hand.  Then go home and donate money to your LCO's bolt replacement fund.

Charlie Martz · · Fort Collins · Joined May 2017 · Points: 45
Daniel Winder wrote: Totally normal for hangers to fall off randomly. Climb on

You're right, I'll try a few of the newer methods I've seen online.



Idk, I am aware that after tensioning a bolt there is a bit of relaxation, so it is possible that when yarding hard on a new bolt / hanger that could create a spinner and loose nut. If that's the case, I'm not all too worried, just cinch er down and keep climbing.

What I'm worried about is if that isn't normal, it could mean that the expansion bolt is shifting around in the rock. Since this area has some pretty crumbly stuff it wouldn't totally surprise me, but I don't actually know that much about it, so I don't want to assume one way or the other.
EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Jim Titt wrote:

Don´t use locknuts on bolts for climbing.

its not a lock nut, lock nut and stop nut are 2 different things. a stop nut is the equivalent of putting some locktite on a nut. it just keeps the nut from spinning off if it comes loose.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 148
EFS wrote:

its not a lock nut, lock nut and stop nut are 2 different things. a stop nut is the equivalent of putting some locktite on a nut. it just keeps the nut from spinning off if it comes loose.

So, as a thought experiment maybe you can educate us all as to what the possible pit falls of adding such things might be?

And maybe show us a picture of exactly what you are talking about.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
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