Curious rope diameter

So I got a deal at REI Outlet on a couple of Edelweiss Sella half ropes that was too good to pass up.  

The strange thing is that the tags say it's an 8.5mm rope, but it seem pretty clearly to be closer to a 9mm rope.  When I measure it with calipers it's just over 9mm.  Next to a 9.8mm rope, this rope is clearly bigger.

Which isn't all that surprising.  The only references I can find online to an Edelweiss Sella rope that isn't from REI is for a 9.0mm diameter rope.  I'd opened a chat with REI before ordering, who had someone in the warehouse check that it was indeed a 9mm rope.  No doubt they just looked what was printed on the tags by the manufacturer.  It's also strange the the color is listed as "green" when it is clearly yellow.  

There isn't a weight listed on REI.  When I weighed it, the 50m rope weighs 2.56 kg, or 51 g/m, which is about what other Edelwiess 9mm ropes weigh.  I'd picked these up specifically to have a fast and light rope, and 8.5mm was really the heaviest I wanted to go.  My plan is to use this on some long approach easy 5th class climbs I hope to do next year, maybe even as a single.  This wouldn't normally justify buying a special rope, but the price was good enough, why not?  I can take them back, but part of me thinks I can still make it work.  

Any thoughts?  It seems like the wrong hang tags and tail markings got put on this thing. This in some ways undermines my confidence in this product.  I don't mean to beat up on REI or Edelweiss.  I've had 2 Edelweiss ropes before that treated me very well, although I guess that was from before they shipped manufacturing to Madagascar.  It just feels kind of scary something like this would make it out of the factory.  

I got a rope from REI that wasn't on the manufacturer's website, because I wanted more info on the rope. I thought it strange that I couldn't find the rope on the manufacturer's website, so I contacted the manufacturer/rope company. The company responded that it wasn't on their website because it was only being offered through REI. Contact Edelweiss directly and ask about the rope.

I believe rope diameters are measured while 80 kg is hanging on 10 meters, or something like that.  This will give you a smaller number.  Your measurement is only off by one half of a millimeter with no weight on it.

edit:  using EN standards, it may be more like 10, 6 and 5 kg, single, half, twin per Pavel's post below.

Greg D wrote: I believe rope diameters are measured while 80 kg is hanging on 10 meters, or something like that.  This will give you a smaller number.  Your measurement is only off by one half of a millimeter. 

Plus, it's an average of 5 (?) measurements taken at different spots on that 10 meters, and it's a tolerance. The tag may say 9.8mm but that really means 9.8 +/- 0.2 (I don't know the actual allowed tolerance for certification).

And to add, the weight of the rope per meter might be a better metric for comparisons anyway.  

Jay J wrote:

Irrelevant.

I bought those same two ropes at rei a few weeks ago. I wasn’t totally stoked about the weight and found a pair of Beal ice lines on STP, with a coupon they were only $10 more and are labeled at 39 grams, although that might be optimistic. Anyway, the pair of Ice lines are at least 2 pounds lighter, well worth a few more bucks. Gotta love REI’s return policy.    edit: the discrepancy on weight may be because manufacturers sometimes cut the rope a couple of meters longer than listed length. 

Pavel Burov wrote:

Irrelevant.

Was just about to reference that lol. Calipers at home don’t mean anything unless you measure exactly the same as the standard. If you’re unsure that you got the rope that you ordered, just return it and buy another set some other time. 

Greg R wrote: Gotta love REI’s return policy.    edit: the discrepancy on weight may be because manufacturers sometimes cut the rope a couple of meters longer than listed length. 

Just to let you know - any safety equipment - harnesses, ropes, helmets, returned to REI gets destroyed - REI employee told me when I returned an obviously unused harness which I purchased 3 hours earlier. REI eats the loss.

amarius wrote:

Just to let you know - any safety equipment - harnesses, ropes, helmets, returned to REI gets destroyed - REI employee told me when I returned an obviously unused harness which I purchased 3 hours earlier. REI eats the loss.

Unless the item is still in it's original packaging with no signs of use. 

amarius wrote:

Just to let you know - any safety equipment - harnesses, ropes, helmets, returned to REI gets destroyed - REI employee told me when I returned an obviously unused harness which I purchased 3 hours earlier. REI eats the loss.

That's a big part of why I want to make these ropes work.  I hate the thought of wasting these ropes.  If they really were 9.5mm ropes, maybe I could use them as toprope work horses?  I already have one, though.  

They came out to $114 after tax for the pair and I got a $20 credit.  Assume REI credit is as good as cash (not really a sound assumption, but hear me out), and the ropes were $47 each.  That's less than 29 cents a foot!  It's cheaper than webbing!  If I didn't already have plenty of retired climbing rope lying around, it would be worth keeping for just general utility use.  

But I have to keep reminding myself that a low price on something you don't need is not a good deal.  If there is something I don't need, it's more clutter.

Check the country of origin on the Edelweiss rope. You might be surprised. If you google around, too, it's tough to find exactly how manufacturers determine diameters, sheath percentages, etc, on their ropes. My expectation is the Edelweiss Unicore ropes are made by Beal (somebody confirm this? Unicore is a Beal TM/technology, yeah?)....Beal makes some of their ropes in Madagascar now, too....maybe Edelweiss sources some of its stuff thru Beal? Always struck me as funny, like when Tua started making skis in Tunisia!

Edelrid is still made in Germany, most of their products are bluesign approved. Every Edelrid rope I've ever owned has been within grams of its stated weight, center mark is accurate, and the rope is the length they say it is. Heads up with these ropes that get made in faraway places with inexpensive labor forces. I'm sure it mostly works out, but every so often you hear about a 60m rope coming it at 57m or the center mark being off by several meters--heads up!

Jay J wrote:

That's a big part of why I want to make these ropes work.  I hate the thought of wasting these ropes.  If they really were 9.5mm ropes, maybe I could use them as toprope work horses?

Did you click on Pavel's "irrelevant" link? If not, here's how rope diameter is determined. Your caliper measurements are useless unless  you follow this method of measurement precisely:

Click on image to enlarge

Marc801 C wrote: Did you click on Pavel's "irrelevant" link? If not, here's how rope diameter is determined. Your caliper measurements are useless unless  you follow this method of measurement precisely:

Click on image to enlarge

Yup, I read it.  Part of me wants to hang 6 kg off of the rope and try it.  It wouldn't take long.  I'd have to take it out of the factory coils, which wouldn't keep REI from accepting the return.  But if the weight of less than 2 gallons of milk takes a rope from well over 9 mm (9.5 if you trust the vernier, which I don't) down to even 8.8 mm, I can't see the rope working out.  It feels very dense, as climbing ropes should.  It's nothing like those cheap ropes from Home Depot that neck down severely when loaded.  It feels a bit like a static line, in fact.  

Next to a 8.9 mm rope made in Europe that mics out right at 9.8mm, the Edelweiss 8.5 should not be noticably larger.  

Edit: the green rope it's an 8.9mm diameter.  

What makes you think that 9.8 is the be all standard.

Just take them out of the coil.  Measure the damn things. Then go climb on them. You might be surprised. There is a lot more to rope performance than diameter.  You are geeking out, tweeking out over minutia.

If you don’t like them, you can sell them here for easily what you paid. There is not much money at risk.  Maybe we will buy them from you and send them to Anif in Pakistan. He will happily send on them.

 Or return it so it can go in the landfill.

Jay J wrote:

The strange thing is that the tags say it's an 8.5mm rope, but it seem pretty clearly to be closer to a 9mm rope.  When I measure it with calipers it's just over 9mm.  Next to a 9.8mm rope, this rope is clearly bigger.

You referenced a 9.8 rope in this and a lower post but show a picture of a 8.9. Considering its weight is comparable to ropes around 9mm I think you can assume it’s mislabeled and what you have is are 9 mm ropes

Greg R wrote:

You referenced a 9.8 rope in this and a lower post but show a picture of a 8.9. Considering its weight is comparable to ropes around 9mm I think you can assume it’s mislabeled and what you have is are 9 mm ropes

Sorry, typo.  It is an 8.9mm rope.  That 8.9mm rope is 80m long, and thus weighs more than I was wanting to carry.

So I went ahead and rigged up the test as best I could.  Filled 2 stainless water jugs to 2.99 and 3.001 kg.  Clamped the top and measured down 1.2 m, and 1.2 m from the bottom where I used an ascended to apply the weight.  Made the measurements with my dial caliper in inches.  That kind of makes it a blind test as converting thousandths of an inch to mm is not something I do in my head very well.  The jaws are 3mm wide, not 50mm, but that would only make the rope look skinnier.  None of it is NIST traceable, of course.  I'm just a guy with a question.  
And the mean of all 6 measurements was 8.84 mm.

Anybody know what document Pavel took that screen shot from? That's a UIAA doc (it doesn't appear so)? Or a CE/Euro union thing? Curious!

I forgot to mention that it stretched more than I expected it to with just over 13 lbs on it.  No question that it's a dynamic rope.  

coppolillo wrote: Anybody know what document Pavel took that screen shot from? That's a UIAA doc (it doesn't appear so)? Or a CE/Euro union thing? Curious!

EN 892:2004

Jay J wrote:

Part of me wants to hang 6 kg off of the rope and try it.  It wouldn't take long.

Nope. It definitely will take long. 'cause one has to put a rope inside a conditioned box to precondition it due to the standard.