"Climbers Trail" Sign. Good or Bad?

Our beloved "Climbers Trail" sign has been STOLEN from both trail heads for Tahquitz. Post and all. My informant says rock climbers are suspected!

But should it even be there in the first place?

Surely I don't think so.  But never liked the Carins either.   

Signs are for people that can't read maps.  

The lack of the signs will just make people who don't know the trail well go bushwacking in the general direction instead of using the climbers trail. People won't just shrug and go home if they can't find the actual trail... they'll just make their own.

Well marked trails save far more of the forest than the trail itself takes up.

All in favor of having tradiban stand where the sign used to be to direct people?

Carolina wrote:

Signs are for people that can't read maps.  

Most everyone then :)

Tradiban wrote: Our beloved "Climbers Trail" sign has been STOLEN from both trail heads for Tahquitz. Post and all. My informant says rock climbers are suspected!

But should it even be there in the first place?

That shit made for great artwork in my room!

Zach D wrote: The lack of the signs will just make people who don't know the trail well go bushwacking in the general direction instead of using the climbers trail. People won't just shrug and go home if they can't find the actual trail... they'll just make their own.

Well marked trails save far more of the forest than the trail itself takes up.

Lol, probably. I told a NFS dude to not replace them because if you can't find the approach trail you will probably get off route and die when you try to climb.

Carolina wrote: Surely I don't think so.  But never liked the Carins either.   

Signs are for people that can't read maps.  

So true. Those Carins are self righteous bitches, always telling you where to go.

"The lack of the signs will just make people who don't know the trail well go bushwacking in the general direction instead of using the climbers trail. People won't just shrug and go home if they can't find the actual trail... they'll just make their own.
Well marked trails save far more of the forest than the trail itself takes up. "

That is exactly true, and is demonstrated at almost every crag, such as:
the hundreds of areas with trail braids in Joshua Tree,
the many parallel paths below the north/northeast side of Tahquitz,
various redundant shortcuts below the NE side of Suicide,
the eroding uncontrolled gutters at Holcomb Pinnacles,
etc.

Just a week ago I went up to Tahquitz for the first time this year.  I went only once last year also.
The trail had a tree across it about half way up to Lunch rock.
Climbers had created 3 new alternate ways around the tree.
No one had done anything to properly fix the trail, not even those who climb there regularly.
Most years for the last 10 the Idyllwild Climber's Alliance has organized a trailwork day, but this year there was none due to the road closure.
It was getting dark so we had limited time, but did spend about 1/2 hour attempting to block off the poorest 2 ways.
Likely some saw work is needed.
The point is that unless regular efforts go into maintaining and designating trails,
climbers will destroy ever increasing habitat.
Even an poor eroding trail like Lunch rock is better than having duplicate haphazard trampings.

tom donnelly wrote: "The lack of the signs will just make people who don't know the trail well go bushwacking in the general direction instead of using the climbers trail. People won't just shrug and go home if they can't find the actual trail... they'll just make their own.
Well marked trails save far more of the forest than the trail itself takes up. "

That is exactly true, and is demonstrated at almost every crag, such as:
the hundreds of areas with trail braids in Joshua Tree,
the many parallel paths below the north/northeast side of Tahquitz,
various redundant shortcuts below the NE side of Suicide,
the eroding uncontrolled gutters at Holcomb Pinnacles,
etc.

Just a week ago I went up to Tahquitz for the first time this year.  I went only once last year also.
The trail had a tree across it about half way up to Lunch rock.
Climbers had created 3 new alternate ways around the tree.
No one had done anything to properly fix the trail, not even those who climb there regularly.
Most years for the last 10 the Idyllwild Climber's Alliance has organized a trailwork day, but this year there was none due to the road closure.
It was getting dark so we had limited time, but did spend about 1/2 hour attempting to block off the poorest 2 ways.
Likely some saw work is needed.
The point is that unless regular efforts go into maintaining and designating trails,
climbers will destroy ever increasing habitat.
Even an poor eroding trail like Lunch rock is better than having duplicate haphazard trampings.

We go up early each year and do a climbers cleanup and fix the trails to both Suicide and Tahquitz as a joint effort between the Forest Service and climbers. Within the first couple of weeks the trails are back the way they were if not worse than how the winter melt left them thanks to the hordes that don’t bother showing up to the annual cleanups. Obviously not everyone can make it due to their schedules, but I’m almost certain that with the amount of people that climb there more than the 30 people that showed up last year could have easily made it. The same goes for Holcomb Valley. I used to organize that with a friend and we maybe would get 15 people to show up for the cleanup. There easily triple that there on any weekend the cleanup doesn’t happen. It just goes to show how lazy the majority are. Ditch the signs and when they shut the area down nobody can bitch about it.

Fanny Pack wrote: I don’t remember seeing any post on here about trail maintenance for Tahquitz or Suicide. How are you getting the word out?  Not all of us use Facebook or other social media. I’d be interested in helping next time you set something up for T&S.

It’s organized by the Idyllwild Climbers Alliance annually. They usually send out a news letter to people on the mailing list. I contacted them first so I’m not exactly sure how the get the word out on their own. There was a group from Hangar 18 Upland that made up half of the cleanup. There were some signs around town as well. I’ll start posting it up on here when they do it, but it was on Super Topo (RIP), meetup, etc

Fanny Pack wrote: Cool. I think posting on here would be a great idea and a simple and effective use of the ICA’s time. What’s posting signs around town going to do?  Don’t all the local climbers already know each other and participate in their own community anyways???  Us outsiders are just too busy eating and drinking, not reading some piece of paper stapled to a telephone pole.

Half the volunteers were from Upland and the gym. Hmmmmmm, kind of throws a wrench in some people’s rants about gym climbers and Los Angeles, but I digress.

I recently started climbing at the Arcadia hangar last year and the Hangar people are really good about the whole clean your shit up for some reason. It’s the larger gyms that seem to be the issue with not promoting the clean up your mess outside. Holcomb Valley is a prime example. It’s always Solid, and Sender belay tags on the harnesses out there, and their the ones with loud speakers, fires, and leaving trash all over. I probably won’t be organizing the cleanup for that area any more just because I sold my house and don’t frequent the area as much. The turn out for that area is pathetic in comparison to the hordes that climb there. We had more hikers than we did climbers show up. 

The ICA was not able to organize this year due to multiple issues.  First the road closure and secondly lack of staffing with the Forest Service.  I know the trails need work as do other members of the ICA.  There may be a possibility of a later cleanup this year but thats TBD.  As of right now the next cleanup through the ICA will be next year.

Just get Trolliban to do all the work. Seeing that he spends 12 hrs / day on MP, it's not like he doesn't have the time.

"They have been stolen multiple times."

Yep. The 'Climber's Trail' signs at the start of the north trail and off the Ernie Maxwell trail were replaced maybe 10-ish years ago, and had a carabiner attached to them. The 'biner disappeared very quickly....then the sign...now the post. About that same time 10 years ago, someone placed a sign at the top of the trail, near the start of Fingertrip to direct traffic towards Lunch Rock- that one lasted less than one season. I remember some ranting going on at SuperTopo about those signs, and whether they should exist...apparently, someone who felt quite strongly took their own initiative.

Waaay bitd, there was a USFS effort to start to keep track of climbers on the trails- there was a sign-in kiosk on the Ernie Maxwell trail (just past the current trail, at an alternate trail location), and another one at the Suicide trail, where the water district road turns into trail. The USFS effort died off, and the kiosks eventually degraded, rotted, fell apart and were removed.

If this were a crag somewhere in the backcountry, I'd be less psyched on the signs, but at T&S, they are a necessary evil. So many clueless gumbies out there these days that are stomping the place into oblivion- I think the concentrated use along the trails is better that dozens of other trails evolving- that's really destructive to the place.

In concur. Simply marking the start of the Lunch Rock Trail junction with the ernie Maxwell Scenic Trail has always prevented further erosion and unnecessary braiding of trails up the hillside. Years ago the USFS placed a kiosk beyond the Lunch Rock Trail junction (which was a mistake) which led to the forming of another trail that braided as it approached the rock, confusing many people who would head straight down it as a descent from the southwest corner of the rock.

Climber's trail marker, indicating the trail to Serenity/Sons of Yesterday, Yosemite Valley

Hopefully a trail maintenance effort can be organized soon for Tahquitz- that big tree mentioned upthread has already resulted in several other use trails around it. It's a big one, though, and is going to take some serious tools and muscle to clear it. Likewise, there is some treefall on the Suicide trail that has resulted in the same kinds of 'new' use trails. 

Marc801 C wrote: Climber's trail marker, indicating the trail to Serenity/Sons of Yesterday, Yosemite Valley

That would make a good souvenir after crushing RA 

abandon moderation wrote:

Given how many climbers I see walking up past Serenity crack looking for Royal Arches, I'm not sure it's marked well enough.

Cory F wrote:

That would make a good souvenir after crushing RA 

1. The biner is painted on