"Cross Loading" your belay biner is not a thing

Show me the accident where the belay biner broke.

I'll be waiting.

didn't some guys belay biner break on a rope-soloing fall? Not a  fair example, of course.

Ok, maybe cross loading your belay biner is not a thing, but microfractures are very real and they keep me awake at night regularly.

Except in that incident, the belay master didn't have its plastic piece, and seems to have become cross-loaded as a result and exploded under the force of a 60' factor 2 fall.

Somewhat related only not a tube style device.

http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf

Auden Alsop wrote:

Yeah, it was a DMM belay Master (with the anti cross loading plastic piece) on El Cap. But as you said, not the same thing.

I have been belaying off that same device since December and literally just got a new BD Magnetron Gridlock yesterday to replace it. Other food for thought for the Belay Master: although the black anti-crossload piece is removable, it can interfere with certain ATCs. I exclusively use an Edelrid MegaJul and the "autolocking" will NOT function if the black anti-crossloading piece is in as it prevents the belay carabiner from pinching the rope in the MegaJul's groove. However, it will engage with the Magnetron Gridlock as it has enough room for the belay biner to slide into the groove. 

Alex CV wrote: Somewhat related only not a tube style device.

http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf

Biners coming unclipped is not "cross loading".

I've seen many belay biners cross loaded.  But never seen one break while being used to belay a leader.  The only concern I would have would be for rope soloing.

Never broke or came open, but when my screwgate biner gets crossloaded sometimes the rope will rub the screw and loosen it. So, not the same thing, but still makes me want to keep the biner loaded properly when I'm belaying.

Show me a tired lonely old man......

Petzl warns against pear/HMS biners for the Grigri, since the shape makes them prone to crossloading. But apparently it's not enough of a problem; they bury the info on their website, not the manual.

I'd be really curious to see worst-possible forces on a belayer. I can't imagine they'll ever get close to 7kN unless you're tying in with Amsteel or some shit.

NegativeK wrote: Petzl warns against pear/HMS biners for the Grigri, since the shape makes them prone to crossloading. But apparently it's not enough of a problem; they bury the info on their website, not the manual.

I'd be really curious to see worst-possible forces on a belayer. I can't imagine they'll ever get close to 7kN unless you're tying in with Amsteel or some shit.

I would think worst case would be a factor 2 fall where the leader had climbed above the belay without clipping into any pro yet and then took a fall directly on the belayers harness.  

Hadumpster doucheboggle needs a girlfriend.  

grog m wrote: Hadumpster doucheboggle needs a girlfriend.  

This

I've been wondering if back clipping has ever caused the rope to really come out of a draw in a legit lead fall.

As far as cross loading a belay biner, you can really up the chances of that by clipping into the swami and leg loops instead of your harness's belay loop.  A lot of people were taught that that approach was the right way to clip into your harness for belaying or rapelling.  

Jay J wrote: I've been wondering if back clipping has ever caused the rope to really come out of a draw in a legit lead fall.

As far as cross loading a belay biner, you can really up the chances of that by clipping into the swami and leg loops instead of your harness's belay loop.  A lot of people were taught that that approach was the right way to clip into your harness for belaying or rapelling.  

Yeah but it's not a thing because the biner is not going to break. cross loading is only a thing because when you cross load it could mess up the way the rope moves through your belay device.

rockklimber wrote:

I would think worst case would be a factor 2 fall where the leader had climbed above the belay without clipping into any pro yet and then took a fall directly on the belayers harness.  

Yes.

NegativeK wrote:

Yes.

Or, if you remove the belayer and belay direct from the anchor.. Is it still going to be anywhere near 7kN? Even with a non-slip ABD?

The forces would be the same, but they would be directly on the anchor instead on the belayers harness. 

rockklimber wrote:

The forces would be the same, but they would be directly on the anchor instead on the belayers harness. 

And the forces would be greater for a gri-gri or similar brake assist device that doesnt slip (which most multipitch climbers dont use).

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't include squishy meat in my anchors.

NegativeK wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't include squishy meat in my anchors.

If done correctly that meat isnt part of an anchor and will lesson the forces on the leader in a fall.  But most leaders dont know how to do this.  

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Show me the accident where the belay biner broke.

I'll be waiting.

Who said it was?  As a rule of thumb we don’t like crossloaded biners but who said it was a thing?