Europe trad climbing advice?

What's up mp. I'll be lucky enough to have the opportunity to travel the last 3 weeks of July and have decided on Europe. I have never been before so I'd like to be able to spend rest days doing touristy stuff. I've been doing my own research but would like to hear from people who have spent significant time over there.

I comfortably climb 5.10 trad 5.11 sport, and prefer long trad routes, tho still enjoy lazy/try hard sport cragging.

As if now I'm thinking of splitting the trip in half at two destinations, tho wouldn't be opposed to spending it at a single area or going a week at 3 different areas.

Areas I'm thinking:
Elb, Czech/Germany
Dolomites, Italy
Chamonix, France
Kalymnos, Greece
Ceuse, France
Lofoten, Norway

Obviously won't make it to all the destinations above so trying to narrow it down. For elb and dolomites, how difficult will it be finding partners and finding my way around? I'll be traveling solo. I'm not opposed to hiring a guide for a day or two but wouldn't want to hire one every climbing day of the trip. For chamonix, is glacier travel required for most of the good rock routes? I'm not into mixed or ice climbing and have not done glacier travel before. I am an experienced split boarder with crampons and axe, but not sure if I feel like traveling with the pointy stuff. I'll already have a 70m, single rack of cams, nuts, 12 alpines. I can bring another set of cams to doubles if it's worth it. I am aware of the sparse/restricted protection at elb and dolomites.

Anyway, I'd really appreciate advice/guidance. Not sure when I'll be able to do a trip like this again and I'd like to make the most of the time/money. 

Kalymnos will be hot, but doable at that time of year if you chase the shade and get in some deep water soloing.  It is going to be strictly sport, but some wonderful climbing at all grades.

Frankly, I wouldn't include Kalymnos in the type of trip you are contemplating.  I think it makes a great single destination, particularly in April or November when temps and crowds are reasonable.  It is not particularly easy to get there from the other areas you are considering.

Life is long - Kalymnos will wait until you can devote a full two weeks to a month to all it has to offer.

Mike Grainger wrote: Kalymnos will be hot, but doable at that time of year if you chase the shade and get in some deep water soloing.  It is going to be strictly sport, but some wonderful climbing at all grades.

Frankly, I wouldn't include Kalymnos in the type of trip you are contemplating.  I think it makes a great single destination, particularly in April or November when temps and crowds are reasonable.  It is not particularly easy to get there from the other areas you are considering.

Life is long - Kalymnos will wait until you can devote a full two weeks to a month to all it has to offer.

Yea I think you're right. Like I said, I like sport climbing too which is why ceuse and kalymnos made the list. But yea think I'll save kalymnos for a different time

Keen to hear answers on this thread - I’ll be spending most summers in Europe for the foreseeable future and am itching to know what my trad options are.

Dolomites: huge area as you know, endless possibilities for trad and multipitch modern routes to keep you busy for three weeks or more.  I would recommend to find pre- arrange a partner (not easy to find partners there). Finding your way around is not difficult in my opinion , and access to many classic climbs is relatively short, but again the area is big so you need to do some research and narrow it down also depending on your goals and capabilities.

For Chamonix, you have some glacier travel to get to some of the best climbs (Grand Capucin, Tacul, Envers des Aiguilles, Aiguille du Midi, and so on). And there are climbs with no glacier travel. In many cases is easy glacier travel, with short flattish approach from the cable car (Aiguille du Midi or from the Italian side pointe Helbronner), but you still want to have ace and crampons (and walk as roped party). 

The areas around Elbe are beautiful and unique. BUT, it will be very hard to find partners. Also the general rule is no metal pro and no chalk, though some crags do allow chalk. The protection is mostly monkey fists and threads supplemented by a few bolts. In Germany you can climb only the towers, not the cliffs. In Czech, you are allowed to climb the cliffs, and these tend to be more densely bolted with modern bolts, though they still adhere to the 5 meter rule. It will be hot and humid in July. The guidebooks are very old school, and if you are not familiar with the "clock" system of orientation, quite  incomprehensible. 

Central Switzerland has a lifetime of trad. or quasi-trad. alpine rock climbing. The rock is generally much better than in the Dolomites, the weather and scenery are on a par, the cost of living a little higher.

The Grimsel pass has Motorhead, supposed to be one of the finest 5.10 multipitch routes in Europe. Nearby Handegg has Fair Hands Line (~5.9) said to be inspired by trips to Tuolumne and Yosemite. Salbitschijen has the super-classic c.35 pitch 5.10 (mostly much easier) Westgrat or the shorter and easier Sudgrat. These are all granite.  Some of the best limestone in Europe is found on the Wendenstock. This is sort-of sport climbing but equipped ground-up and pitches under 7a (11d) will usually be quite sportingly bolted. Additionally the grades can be quite fierce, the easiest route Spasspartout is given 6a (10b) but feels like Red Rocks 11b. If this is all not too off-putting the climbing is sensational.

Like the Dolomites, Switzerland is not a place with a climbers hang-out you can turn-up at and find a partner. Ceuse, Chamonix and possibly Lofoten are better bets in this respect.

Another option which may have more of a climber's scene is the Val Di Mello in northern Italy. This has granite bouldering, single pitch sport and multipitch sport and trad. The Pizzo Badile is close by to the north.

All these places are great but subject to mountain weather so it's best to be flexible if you can. This brings me to my recommendation of sorts: fly to somewhere central (Milan?), all the places above are between 2-4 hours drive of Milan airport, rent a cheap car for the three weeks, arrange a partner or two, but both of you should agree to a plan B - typicaly lower altitude sport climbing - should the weather be crap.  

Lofoten is unreal. One of the best places I’ve climbed. Excellent quality rock, single pitch to huge and everything is between. A lot of 5.10 trad there and not far from the Stetind. Also, it’s at sea level and you’ll have over 20hrs of daylight.

But you’ll want at least 10 days including travel and it won’t be incredibly easy to find partners, although there could be a lot of Brits there and more on UKC that would be willing to go.

Other than that, duncan’s post above is pretty much spot on. 

duncan... wrote: both of you should agree to a plan B - typicaly lower altitude sport climbing - should the weather be crap.  

and my experience from several trips is that rainy periods hit the Dolomites often.

A different sort of Plan B is to drive to the Briancon / Haut Durance area in the southern French Alps
-- very reachable from Italy thru the major city of Torino (Turin) - (with high-speed road from Milano / Milan) - across the Col Montgenevre pass.

Notably higher percentage of dry weather compared with the often-rainy Dolomites.
Several interesting rock types with multi- and single-pitch: granite, quartzite, limestone (also single-pitch puddingstone conglomerate).
True alpine routes on the peaks of Ecrins National Park (way higher than anything in the Dolomites).
Via Ferrata routes with better climbing sequences than lots of the old Dolomites stuff.
Idyllic camping (under multi-pitch granite) at Ailefroide.
Perhaps Ailefroide could be a place to find partners.

Keep in mind that while the Dolomite peaks _look_ spectacular on a macro scale seen from the road, but close-up for climbing, on average the
Dolomite rock is shit loose + breakable
-- need to be choosy with guidebooks.
Also lots of the easy / moderate routes with more sound rock are polished.

Haut Durance limestone is sort of like Dolomite rock, but the quartzite and granite are overall much harder.

Two disadvantages of Briancon / Haut Durance:
* The rock peaks do not _look_ as dramatic as the Dolomites from the roads.
* Not so famous for Trad -- many of the classic multi-pitch (non-alpine) routes are bolted.

Ken

P.S. another Plan B might be to get the guidebook "Sarca Walls", with lots of low-elevation multi-pitch Trad climbing nearby the Dolomites. Of course low-elevation in summer often means Hot.

The Ecrins is a good suggestion. I have no first-hand experience but Ailefroide sounds a bit like Mello:a granite valley, climbers campsite, bouldering, short sport and longer routes all in one place. You might hook-up for a casual sport climbing session and progress to something more ambitious if it works out.

I totally agree with this assessment of the Dolomites, hence flagging the Bernese Oberland. The Dolomites has the climbing history and the food, I'd take the pizza in Canazei over Meringen any day, but the rock is pretty meh. I'm surprised the Ecrins gets less rain than the Dolomite as whenever I've driven betwen Grenoble and Ceuse its been rainy but you're absolutely right: according to yr.no Ailefroid gets 5 rainy days in July. Val d Mello (Masino) gets 10, Cortina 12 and Sustenpass or Wendenstock 15, which all feel about right from my experiences.

A French climbing summer holiday sometimes goes: arrive in Chamonix with great plans, weather forces retreat to Ecrins, still bad here so bail to Ceuse or Verdon! (The long south facing Verdon routes are likely too hot in July unless the weather is unseasonably cold but the Duc and other north facing crags could be an option)

Well I feel the Haut Durance valley is different from the Ecrins high peaks (tho close by)  -- with different weather.

So the high peaks could be socked in while the valley climbing is very do-able.

Often even dry-er than Haut Durance is far south by the Sea around Marseille + Aix + Toulon. With several lifetimes of interesting climbing (if it's not too hot). Rather easy drive from Briancon to Aix-en-Provence.

Also (more of a Sport-climbing focus)
Finale Ligure often has a dryer micro-climate than nearby hills + mountains.

Ken

I live in Grenoble and can confirm that the Briancon valley has some magic weather going on up there. That said, I have seen snow in July on Izoard. Anyway, there's a ton of high quality single and multi pitch crags up there! 

Col du Lautaret is at least anecdotally the dividing line between the consistently good weather of the Briancon valleys and the less good weather (but still hard to complain about) of the Ecrins.

Czech sandstone has my vote. No metal pro allowed so sack up. It's like climbing on nuts and hexes, but made from cord.

Dolomites - while I agree the rock quality is variable, there are plenty of routes on great rock. And way, way more than just old polished classics or good food. Just my 2 cents.

If you like granite (and often generously fun bolted routes, hardly what you would call trad in US), I agree that Central Switzerland has plenty of good lines less crowded than the average Chamonix classic

Val di Mello: great place, not sure I would recommend going there in July. Relatively low altitude, south facing walls and often tricky friction climbing can be a awful mix.

I'm biased because I live here.... But think about Tenerife (Canary Islands) Flights from most of mainland Europe are cheap and although hot like most of Europe in Summer we have the cool atlantic ocean to cool down in after a cragging session.... 

Dolomites- partners no
Chamonix- partners yes
Ailefroide- partners yes
Orco- partners maybe- depends on who is at the campground 

Generally climbers are friendly but not so easy to join up with. Granite areas that are not bolted ie cracks require big racks eg visiting Indian creek with a single rack......but you don't need big racks for Dolomites cos of the occasional bolts ie just supplement 

The Briancon area is quite nice and there's a Rockfax English guide to the lower elevation routes.  The place there that seems promising for partner finding is Alefroide as it appears to be popular with Brits.  The camping is idyllic, restaurants, stores, everything you need, except perhaps great climbing.  We spent only one day there and hoped to get on the somewhat famous pillar overlooking the campground, but it was overrun and rain was threatening so we climbed alternate routes.  Nothing to get excited about.  I much preferred nearby Fressenieres and it seems no one climbs there anymore.  Good mix of short and long limestone sport routes, somewhat polished now in places.  Climbing in the high Ecrins would benefit from some knowledge of French.

It should be fairly easy to hook up in Arco by staying at the near to town campground. You can walk right across the road to climb.  Arco has plenty of long routes on very good rock.  If you think you might be interested pick up a copy of Pareti di Sarca to see the long routes.  There's also a companion sport crag guide.

Dolomites climbing is definitely not meh and there are many many classic routes on good to very good rock.  Don't be dissuaded.

J Kuginis wrote: Dolomites- partners no
Chamonix- partners yes
Ailefroide- partners yes
Orco- partners maybe- depends on who is at the campground

Generally climbers are friendly but not so easy to join up with. Granite areas that are not bolted ie cracks require big racks eg visiting Indian creek with a single rack......but you don't need big racks for Dolomites cos of the occasional bolts ie just supplement 

Which granite areas are you referring to? 

If you want a good mixte of great climbing and just generally fun life/place, Kalymnos is though to beat. I was there a few years ago in ago. Sun's un climbable, but the island is surrounded by cliffs of all aspects. You can easily follow the shade. Plus all crags are accessible via scooters, most within 1hr from bed including the approach. There's nice stuff to do on days off too. Plus it's be easy to find partners. Really hard to go wrong there... But yeah, not a great multi-destination option (isolated) and only sport.

adam gong wrote:

Which granite areas are you referring to? 

Orco in Italy has bolted face but the cracks are clean and beautiful. This is NOT Arco. Most granite in Pyrenees was bolted including cracks. Stuff around briancon including Ailefroide was bolted. Chamonix had both- lots of bolts but also did stuff without bolts