The lore of El Cap

I may get banned or exiled from the climbing community for asking this, but I'm wondering how much of the 5.14 and 5.13 grade of routes on El Cap are actually because of the technical difficulty or because it's 30 pitches and super exposed?

Of course I'm not questioning there is difficult climbing up there, but as someone who hasn't ever been up there but has goals and aspirations of eventually going up, I'm just wondering if the same pitches were at your single pitch crag with bolts every 10 feet, would they still be considered 5.13? Or how could they compare? Is a lot of it hype and just due to the epicness of such a wall?

I'm really just trying to get an idea. 

It’s real.

Ondra can onsight 5.14d and it still took him almost a month to project the Dawn Wall (total time) and he commented how it kicked his ass. Couldn't free The Nose or onsight The Salathe etc.

El Cap is the hype my young Padawan. Other than Freerider most of the other free routes only have a few ascents or may still be un-repeated.

Routes on El Cap are the real deal, the 5.11's are probably 5.13 at your local crag  

To a seasoned El Cap climber, “exposure” is completely non existent. Certainly, i.e., The Scotty Burke pitch, (5.10d or 5.12a depending on your body size) since it is pitch 28 of Freerider, is different than if it were a one pitch route on Arch Rock and you’ve been climbing for a while to get there, but no, the rating aren’t soft since they are way up there.
And “bolts every 10 feet” certainly isn’t the norm.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: 
El Cap is the hype my young Padawan. Other than Freerider most of the other free routes only have a few ascents or may still be un-repeated.

Hmmm... sorry Harump, but this is completely wrong.

Mark Hudon wrote: 

Hmmm... sorry Harump, but this is completely wrong.

How many ascents of El Nino or Free Dihedral? 2 or 3? Didn't Alex and Brad just get the 2nd ascent of El Nino?

I thought another of Tommy's routes hadn't been repeated yet?

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

How many ascents of El Nino or Free Dihedral? 2 or 3? Didn't Alex and Brad just get the 2nd ascent of El Nino?

I thought another of Tommy's routes hadn't been repeated yet?

they did pineapple express, a 5 pitch variation put up by trotter last year and made the wall go all free instead of having to do the swing. so they got the second ascent of pineapple express, but not of free el nino.

i remember the first time i watched the videos of Ondra attempting to OS Salathe and seeing him try hard and let out typical ear-piercing shrieks trying to send the boulder problem which is rated 5.13a. this is a man that has onsighted 5.15a and he was trying hard to onsight a 5.13a.

as i finished watching it, i let it sink in and i thought "man, i can't even imagine myself scream-sending my way up a 5.10 onsight"...and then i remembered that i had done that...on El Cap hahahaha.

long story short...go to colorado and nobody gives a fuck if you climb 5.14...yet 5.13 on El Cap is world class.

El Niño has been free climbed a dozen times. The Shaft, PreMuir, at least 6 times, Diehedral and Magic Mushroom have seen second ascents, Zodiac has been done 4 or 5 times. Golden Gate was free climbed four times this season! The only free El Cap route that hasn’t been repeated is Lurking Fear.

I guess you could argue that 5 or 6 ascents is “a few” so maybe in that regard you are not completely wrong. 

These routes weren’t put up by regular joes. They know how hard a move is. If anything it’s sandbagged. Suggesting it might be soft for the grade is pretty much calling out the hard folks that put these things up. I wouldn’t argue with the Huber brothers tommy or Arnold over how hard a route is. It’s honestly a bit insulting from my perspective. 

bruno-cx wrote:

Nobody Cares that you are From Colorado.

i care coloRADo frens

This thread is spot on, and lol. I have never climbed on El Cap, but from my limited experience doing multi-pitch in Yosemite and other places, as well as climbing stuff on the side of the road in Yosemite, I found that the difference between roadside routes (especially short ones) and anything a few pitches up (at Yosemite or anywhere else) to be night and day different in grade. The stuff on the side of the road is as stiff as any 'sandbagged' crack climbing area, and the stuff up on the walls is as soft as the easiest graded climbs you find in these 'sandbagged' crack climbing areas. In other words, I would give it an average of two letter grades of difference. Imagine the rescues if the pitches really were sandbags...lol.

edited to add: ​everyone knows the multi-pitch is soft​​​

JNE wrote: I have never climbed on El Cap, but from my limited experience doing multi-pitch in Yosemite and other places, as well as climbing stuff on the side of the road in Yosemite, I found that the difference between roadside routes (especially short ones) and anything a few pitches up (at Yosemite or anywhere else) to be night and day different in grade. The stuff on the side of the road is as stiff as any 'sandbagged' crack climbing area, and the stuff up on the walls is as soft as the easiest graded climbs you find in these 'sandbagged' crack climbing areas. In other words, I would give it an average of two letter grades of difference. Imagine the rescues if the pitches really were sandbags...lol.

Interesting perspective for someone with your own stated level of experience.

I haven’t climbed a 5.14 on El Cap but a lot the 5.13 pitches would be easier if they were on the ground. The Black Cave on El Niño, the Beak Flake on El Corazon or the Golden Desert on Golden Gate come to mind. It’s certainly hight dependent but I’d put the Freerider Boulder Problem at V6 or 7. There are other 5.13 pitches that are more accurate but they’re fewer and far between. The Silverfish Corner and The Black Dike pitchs would be good examples imo. However, at the end of a long day when you’re tired and scared, most of the pitches feel sandbagged. I think multiple challenges are rightfully factored in when it comes to bigwall grading. 

Also, El Cap free climbing can be really hard to read (like the Freerider boulder problem). The first go always seems sandbagged but then seems way easier once you figure it out. Again though, when you’re climbing up from ground it feels solid for the grade even if you have the beta figured out. 

Mark Hudon wrote: El Niño has been free climbed a dozen times. The Shaft, PreMuir, at least 6 times, Diehedral and Magic Mushroom have seen second ascents, Zodiac has been done 4 or 5 times. Golden Gate was free climbed four times this season! The only free El Cap route that hasn’t been repeated is Lurking Fear.

I guess you could argue that 5 or 6 ascents is “a few” so maybe in that regard you are not completely wrong. 

So, not wrong that some routes have yet to be repeated and some of the hardest routes only 2 ascents but totally wrong at how some of the easiest routes have become more popular than this old dad was remotely aware...so on balance going with more right than wrong is that fair to say? Not wrong but not perfectly accurate.

I certainly cannot speak to sandbagging or not on such routes but plenty of the "easy" free climbing WAS sandbagged historically...unless The Ear is really only 5.7...and the thin hands off el cap spire is only 10c? ( per Meyers)

Pancake flake was supposed to be only 10a when I tried to free it...who knew the last bit was 11c? Dang Bachar...

;)

Thanks for your perspective, Brad.  You mentioned that fear can be an issue at the end of a long day...  Does that mean that you do feel the exposure?  Mark mentions upthread that the exposure is zero concern for climbers with the experience you guys have, but it sounds like that isn't the case for all?  It's hard for someone like me to wrap my head around what you are doing up there if exposure is a legit factor.  Really amazing stuff!!

El Cap climbing is waaaaay cooler then cragging and I always bring my A game to the big wall so maybe that’s why I’m thinking the grades might be softer then single pitch stuff. 

Jason Kim wrote: Thanks for your perspective, Brad.  You mentioned that fear can be an issue at the end of a long day...  Does that mean that you do feel the exposure?  Mark mentions upthread that the exposure is zero concern for climbers with the experience you guys have, but it sounds like that isn't the case for all?  It's hard for someone like me to wrap my head around what you are doing up there if exposure is a legit factor.  Really amazing stuff!!

Exposure has nothing to do with it. It’s fatigue that brings on the fear. If anything the exposure helps because you won’t ground fall and it usually means the rock is steep so it’ll probably be a clean fall. 

JNE wrote: This thread is spot on, and lol. I have never climbed on El Cap, but from my limited experience doing multi-pitch in Yosemite and other places, as well as climbing stuff on the side of the road in Yosemite, I found that the difference between roadside routes (especially short ones) and anything a few pitches up (at Yosemite or anywhere else) to be night and day different in grade. The stuff on the side of the road is as stiff as any 'sandbagged' crack climbing area, and the stuff up on the walls is as soft as the easiest graded climbs you find in these 'sandbagged' crack climbing areas. In other words, I would give it an average of two letter grades of difference. Imagine the rescues if the pitches really were sandbags...lol.

edited to add: everyone knows the multi-pitch is soft

As to my post you linked to, you totally missed the point. I find it hard to crank through the same pitches on the ground in the same amount of time as on a multi because my single pitch cleaning and logistical skills are garbage compared to my multipitch efficiency. Go climb some at the cookie, then go try astroman and tell me yosemite long free climbs are soft.