Hiking/approaching vs running?

I think I'm in pretty good general cardio shape, I can easily run 4-6 miles holding an 8 min/mi pace.

But hiking just KILLS me.  Especially on approaches, where I have gear and a rope weighing me down.  Even just going up to Wind Tower at Eldo gets me, er, winded when I have gear on.  Is this just due to not really training for that specific activity?  What sort of training do you MPers do for long approaches?

I'd like to eventually do things with longer approaches, maybe even try alpine routes, but right now it feels like type 2 fun...

Have you considered hiking with weight on your back for training?

A lot of people do running as a cardio training for approaches. But I think if you do running as training for uphill hikes with weights, you should consider doing intervals and/ or runs on varried hilly terrain, instead of just doing 3-5K on level ground.

And yes, I do think that there is some specificity to almost any activity, and if you do something else to train for it, the transference is only partial.

You are in a better hiking shape than someone who doesn't run at all, but maybe not in as good a shape as someone who hikes uphill with a pack every few days, and never bothers to run. But if you went for a run with that guy... you probably would do better at that.  

What about weight training?  I’ve noticed my legs get pretty sore after carrying a heavy pack and climbing leg-heavy stuff (trad) all day.  I know some people do squats, deadlifts, etc.

I find running, cycling, and steep hiking to each require separate conditioning - if I go w/o doing one of them for a while, it feels hard even if I've been doing the other 2.

When I started doing multipitch, I was surprised to have trouble keeping up on steep approaches with people in much worse shape than me.  In a couple of years I got to where I wanted to be (faster than or equal to all my climbing partners) just by doing the approaches - no special weight training.

You know the mountaineers rest step right? You should be able to tailor your gate to any slope/weight carried and not get winded. Carrying a full haul bag up steep hills I've gone as slow as 3 full breaths on a locked knee.

Nathan Sullivan wrote:...maybe even try alpine routes, but right now it feels like type 2 fun...

Alpine routes never stop being type 2 fun, you just get faster on them. 

But being serious, I found specific training as described in TFTNA to be useful. This includes two things: 1) strength 2) endurance. Strength training is in the gym (squats, deadlifts, box steps). Endurance would be going on long hikes with a pack or doing stairs with a weighted pack. One major thesis of the book is that training 2) endurance without first having 1) strength will produce subpar results, and that climbers need to focus not only on endurance, but also hit the gym to develop strength. YMMV but I found that approach to be useful.

Artful Dodger wrote:  I am guessing you smoke or are over wight if neither I apologize. 

Yep, overwight.

He probably suffers from wight privilege, too!

Sounds like I need to get TFTNA, and do actual specific training for the things I want to do.  Kind of what I figured.  I probably need to rest step more too, I tend to be in a hurry to get to the climbing (who isn't?).

Also, I weigh 150 and don't smoke.  20 less pounds and I'd probably get launched into orbit when belaying.  And I'd love to hold a 6 min/mi pace during my 4-6 mile runs, that would be crazy fast!

Another strategy that helps if live or work in an urban area is to get access to an indoor
 stairwell
Go up and down the stairs 2 at a time with increasing weight in backpack.
During grad school I had access to a 13-story building for this.
Afterward my convenient access was only to 7.5-story. But even that has turned out to be rather helpful. Nice length for short intense intervals (which studies in recent years have found to be one of the most effective training protocols).
I usually work up to 80 pound (36 kg) pack, sometimes 90 pounds (41 kg).

Down training is also important I think.
I suspect more flatlanders get long-term injuries from pounding impact on knees + ankles on the descents from rock routes.
My experience is that those muscles and joints can readily be trained.
So then I also jog _down_ 2 stairs at a time with 80 lb backpack.

"Experts" will claim that downhill training with a heavy pack will wreck your joints, but I've been doing it for years.
Key point is start with much much less than 80 pounds, work up the weight carefully progressively.

Outdoors I run down the steepest (short) asphalt roads (15% grade) within half-hour driving, progessively work the weight up to 30 pounds in pack, running down at top speed.

Longer descent: Today jogged down pretty mountain trail with 12 pounds / 5.5 kg in small pack. I doubt I'll get to more than 15 lb for such a long descent.

Ken

As someone who has run and climbed for sixty years, my view is that level running on hard surfaces or a track will be beneficial to an extent, but you'll still feel surprisingly tired going uphill with a pack.  A sensible amount of weight training, sticking to just a few exercises with clear transfer value, will probably help, but the real answer, in my opinion, is trail running on as hilly a course as you can find.  This will almost certainly mean that some of the time you probably won't be running, but you'll still be hiking as fast as you can without bonking.

Edit: Steph Davis knows what she's talking about and doesn't really agree with me; her take is that you have to train by going uphill with a pack.  See stephdavis.co/blog/training…

rgold wrote: As someone who has run and climbed for sixty years, my view is that level running on hard surfaces or a track will be beneficial to an extent, but you'll still feel surprisingly tired going uphill with a pack.  A sensible amount of weight training, sticking to just a few exercises with clear transfer value, will probably help, but the real answer, in my opinion, is trail running on as hilly a course as you can find.  This will almost certainly mean that some of the time you probably won't be running, but you'll still be hiking as fast as you can without bonking.

Edit: Steph Davis knows what she's talking about and doesn't really agree with me; her take is that you have to train by going uphill with a pack.  See stephdavis.co/blog/training…

That certainly matches my experience - I feel great running and cycling, the specific act of going uphill, especially with weight, is the issue.  Between what everyone here and Steph are saying, sounds like some combo of doing squats, walking/running uphill with weight and some hilly trail runs (fun!) are in my future.

It's hard focusing on training when you are a working stiff, but I should be able to add some of those things into my workweeks.

Artful Dodger wrote: In that case don't lose any wight err weight, thanks Frankie dear. Train uphill with a pack, what RGold said and if you have average build/health increase the weight and difficulty slowly or you'll wreck your knees, hips and ankles.

Yup, especially going downhill.  The trick of making your training weight water and dumping it for the downhill is a good strategy.  

I also think that if you can stand the extreme boredom of box step-ups (~17 inch box, with increasing pack weight), it is possibly the best indoor training exercise.

I should have mentioned that if you have places to go trail-running, then you are outside in beautiful places doing what you love, as opposed to grinding out reps in a gym somewhere or pounding along a roadside with cars zipping by.  And unless you are fanatic, you can get an excellent training effect and still pause for a glorious view or to take a picture of some nice blooms.  For me in my old age, trail running is just another day out in the hills and not some obligatory training routine I feel obliged to carry out.

agree with everybody else who is saying that running on flat ground doesn't convert very well to hiking up steep hills with a pack.  apples and oranges.  JV's comment about hiking with a ton of extra water works really well.  if you are doing the mountaineers rest step (and you aren't at an elevation of 20K plus), then you need to go back to the drawing board.  :)

one thing i didn't really see mentioned above is altitude.  it affects some people more than others, but being in good shape at elevation X isn't necessarily the same as being in good shape at X+5000 ft.  I really struggle with this one.

slim wrote: agree with everybody else who is saying that running on flat ground doesn't convert very well to hiking up steep hills with a pack.  apples and oranges.  JV's comment about hiking with a ton of extra water works really well.  if you are doing the mountaineers rest step (and you aren't at an elevation of 20K plus), then you need to go back to the drawing board.  :)

one thing i didn't really see mentioned above is altitude.  it affects some people more than others, but being in good shape at elevation X isn't necessarily the same as being in good shape at X+5000 ft.  I really struggle with this one.

I do the mountaineers rest step all the time (if it's uphill enough and I have a heavy pack). It's about getting the correct level of exertion and allowing your muscles to rest completely but briefly on a locked knee (skeletal support instead of muscle). I'm usually the fastest one in my group because I maintain an efficient pace and I almost never need to stop to rest (I stop when I want a snack/water or to change layers). At the top of an approach when some of my group are wiped out, I feel fine. I'm far from the fastest one on flat ground. It actually bugs me when people are always asking to stop and rest because it means they are probably going at too fast a pace to maintain. If you haven't done a rest step at 4,000 feet you've probably never humped a full Grade IV haul bag up to the base of a big wall.

Opps. Yeah. Meant Grade VI.

From hiking loads in for new routing, I think the key is keeping an even pace (fairly quick rather than slow and halting), and just take smaller steps on the strenuous parts, concentrating on your breath, keeping it even and deep. On the steep I just take lots of small steps and keep chugging along and go into almost a trance state. Sometimes once at the destination I barely remember  the hike. It is almost like "How did I get here?" By concentrating on your breath, you also are probably not having your interior dialog holding you back by telling you how hard it is and that it sucks and is painful.

J V wrote: Yep, your training has to be specific to what your doing. Reading Training for the New Alpinism really helped me. I do a lot of hiking in our local mountains, especially Baldy, Wilson, and Iron which makes the approach for climbs a breeze. I’m never out of breath for alpine stuff.

FrankPS wrote:

Yep, overwight.

He probably suffers from wight privilege, too!

rgold wrote:

The trick of making your training weight water and dumping it for the downhill is a good strategy.  

Strongly disagree. 

I think that training strongly for the uphill and only weakly for the downhill is exactly how lots of people get long-term knee- and ankle-joint injuries -- from the repeated high impact on descent. Often combined with mis-steps and dislodging rocks.

Downhill training perhaps needs to be more careful and serious and incremental progressive loading than uphill.
Not just "dumping the water".

If you're going to apply serious stress in mountain performance, you need to include careful specific stimulation of that stress in training.

Ken