Glaciated Approach: Ice Tools + Mountaineering Axe?

When alpine ice climbing and the approach requires glacier crossing, what do people pack?

2 ice tools (to be used on the ice climb) + 1 mountaineering axe (for the approach)?
1 ice tool + 1 mountaineering axe?

Considering the North Ridge of Baker someday.

Thanks in advance!

I’d carry just the tool(s) I felt I wanted for the hardest ice pitches on the intended route.   

Never need to take three ice axes - that is plain damn silly.  Two ski poles and and two axes for N. Ridge of Baker works. Use the ski pole to probe for cracks while having the axe in the other hand. The length is personal preference / route dependent. For the N. Ridge a 60 and 50 would be fine as would two 50s.

I’ll give a plug for a BD Whippet for one of your poles for that kind of route, if you’re planning to use poles anyway....

I'd say either take two tools (especially if they're Petzl Quark-like) or a hybrid axe (e.g. Sumtec, BD Venom, Light Machine etc) and a tool

I've yet to come across a snow slope that I couldn't climb because I didn't have a general mountaineering axe.

Nick Sweeney wrote: I've yet to come across a snow slope that I couldn't climb because I didn't have a general mountaineering axe.

Haha... this reminds me of discussions about how hard it is to climb WI2+ with steep ice or mixed tools. 

Bill Kirby wrote:

Haha... this reminds me of discussions about how hard it is to climb WI2+ with steep ice or mixed tools. 

Climbing WI2 with X-Dreams is the only kind of climbing I excel at!

Nick Sweeney wrote: I've yet to come across a snow slope that I couldn't climb because I didn't have a general mountaineering axe.

But you've probably come across plenty of snow slopes that would suck to arrest on with an ice tool :-) 

jdejace wrote:

But you've probably come across plenty of snow slopes that would suck to arrest on with an ice tool :-) 

Not enough to carry long axe on a route in addition to two ice tools, that is madness!

I agree that's a bit much especially when you're carrying an overnight kit. That said I'm personally much more confident in my ability to climb grade 2/3 ice with 1 axe + 1 tool than I am in my ability to arrest with an ice tool. That's the crux of the thread, which compromise to make. I turned around in bad weather when I visited Baker but I had 1 axe + 1 tool and that's what I'd go back to the N. Ridge with unless somebody convinces me otherwise. 

jdejace wrote:

But you've probably come across plenty of snow slopes that would suck to arrest on with an ice tool :-) 

The slope where self arresting actually matters is rarely encountered. When does self-arresting really matter? If your'e not roped to someone else, there's really only two variables: slope angle and snow hardness. If the slope is low angle, you won't fall, so it doesn't matter (even if you did, arresting is easy). If the snow is soft, it's easy to stop, so it doesn't matter. If the angle is steep and the snow is hard, you're gonna have a difficult time stopping either way, so better not to fall in the first place (either pitch it out or accept that except in very specific snow conditions and slope angles, you're soloing). 

Things get more interesting once you add crevasses and being roped to a person into the mix, but even then the math is pretty similar. There are two primary hazards: falling off the mountain (i.e. slope angle) and falling into the mountain (i.e. crevasses, notably saggers or the unpredictable but mandatory bridge kind). If falling into the mountain is the problem, long rope it. If falling off is of bigger concern, simul-solo (see above). If falling in and falling off are *both* problems, then pitch it out.

Kincaid Murray wrote: I'd say either take two tools (especially if they're Petzl Quark-like) or a hybrid axe (e.g. Sumtec, BD Venom, Light Machine etc) and a tool

+1       I'd take a sum'tec + quark for the N ridge.

The sum'tec was made for this...

For me, a sum'tec and straight shafted technical tool (quark/north machine) is a perfect combination for most technical glaciated cascade routes.  

More than a straight shaft for plunging I'd want an axe or tool with an adze that I can T-slot if needed.  I don't think I'd get very hung up on wanting a glacier axe to plunging for self belay unless I was planning on belaying a partner up to me off my axe.  A tool with a sliding pommel like the new BD Venoms or Petzl Sum'tec, Gully, or Quark on one of the tools would be optimum but not necessary if you don't already have one.

I have not climbed the North Ridge but I have spent a lot of time on the Coleman Glacier.  I'll be in the seracs this weekend working on alpine ice techniques.  In the past I usually carry a pair of Venoms into the seracs, this weekend I'll take a Petzl Ride and a Gully that I have recently picked up to see how they do on bare glacier ice.  When the North Ridge is in good condition the glacier is still covered in snow and you probably won't be leaning on your spike much if any.

When we did the route (back in 2003... time flies), we each had one traditional ice axe and one straight-shaft ice tool.  This worked extremely well.  Check out that old halogen headlamp!

+ 1 For Sum’Tecs.  Take you from the flats to easy AI/WI 4’s before feeling like you really need anything else....’cept feels a bit light when it’s really cold and brittle...