Dmm dragons or wild country friends?

Hey i am looking to bought cams for doubles my BD C4 rack. I hesitate between dragons and friends wildcountry. There is 30% off on dmm dragons in my town. I really loved that both cam had extensible slings. But Dragons dont got the thumbs loop . Did it go well even without the thumbloop?

Hey Julien, I asked the question about cams (DMM dragons including) several months ago when I was trying to decide which cams to buy for my first ever trad rack. I finally decided to buy Totems in all regular sizes they have and bought two large DMM Dragons. I am still learning how to put protection and I haven't tried a lot so cannot say either pros or cons but to me dragons feel fine even without their thumb loop. Now, I climb with a very experienced climber who recently took me to climb Snake Dike on Half Dome and he used my Totems and Dragons and he said he loved Totems and Dragons were fine too except he really doesn't like their lack of the thumbloop. He said it might be his personal preference: he has been climbing for 25+ years always using cams with thumb loops... My other friend, a beginner trad climber who unlike me uses dragons quite a lot lately, swears by them and in fact he really influenced my decision to buy dragons in large sizes.

Don't know if this post helps, hopefully it does a bit :) ultimately it's your personal preference and yours only :)

Good luck and just keep climbing!

I have both. I feel like the dragons stick better, but having big hands makes it hard to grab them in outward flaring cracks, since they're smaller. Other than that I'm not seeing a big enough difference to say one is better than the other. 

Friends and Dragons are very similar - Friends have a thumb loop, Dragons don't - they both have extendable slings. Friends are lighter.

Don’t aid...don’t worry; thumb loop is irrelevant.

Both are pretty great actually and before the BD update both were built better than BD.  DMM and WC both knockoff BD...so the real question actually is the superior DMM build quality worth the added weight over the new svelter BDs.   

I only used cams with thumbloop so maybe the Wc friend would be great to me ! Thanks for the answer guys, really helpful:)

I love my friends. Have triples in 1-2-3-4 and doubles in smaller sizes. Extendable slings are super handy and they just feel really well made. I have a #5 and 6 new camalot. Quality on both is pretty much the same. I like the new lobe restraint on new bd. Never used dmm so can't comment on them. But you def won't be disappointed if you choose the new friends. 

Get the friends, you won’t regret it!

Live Perched wrote: Don’t aid...don’t worry; thumb loop is irrelevant.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with this. I started climbing on Friends and then Flexible Friends, then eventually first gen Camalots, none of which had the thumb loop and never thought much of it. Later I moved on to various cams with thumb loops. Then Metolius discontinued the Mastercams and I was forced to try the non-loop ultralights. I HATED them and noticed a huge difference without the thumb loops. I sold them after a couple of months. 
When you’re pumped, at your limit, and really can’t afford to fumble, the thumb loop makes a huge difference in my experience. My partners all agree. DMM is a great company and makes lots of brilliant gear, but I’d personally never go back to non-loop cams. 

The “extendable” sling on the friends is worthless in my opinion, much shorter than the dragons. Don’t think it extends as far as a BD cam with a standard draw clipped to it. Also, for doubles, the WC are slightly larger than BD and DMM. I was in the same spot as you a couple years ago, so bought a couple of each. Went with the dragons and do not regret it. Never understood the reliance on the thumb loop other than for aid. I have always placed both cams with and without thumb loops the same. 

I think the sweet spot for the dragons is .5-1.  The yellow one is ok but starting to get to the point where a thumb loop is nice. In the smaller lighter ones I don’t miss the thumb loop.  

buy whatever is cheaper
both dragons and friends are a great double set for BD

I'm also not sure that the dragons are much longer, if at all, with the sling extended vs the new friends - when you look at the total length of the cam from axle to sling end, the friends may be longer, actually
New friends are lighter than new BDs in the smaller sizes, slightly heavier in hand+ sizes, both being lighter than dragons - small difference, but its there if that matters. The hollow axle on the new friends also makes them feel more "balanced" in hand, IMO. The triple-grip lopes on the dragons are pretty cool, possibly most effective design if you're climbing slick rock.
So many little differences online, not much in real world use - that's why you can let price dictate your choice - jump on the deal! 

The WC Friends are pretty sweet!  That's what I built my rack on, largely because I could get them much cheaper than Dragons.

As for the Dragons........

I don't get the whole thumb loop thing.  For me most of the fumbling is getting them off my harness and then regrabbing them so I can place them.  A good racking carabiner took care of most of that for me.  I have UL master cams and love them.  There is a big reduction in bulk without the cable loop.

I have the 00 Dragon Cam which is absolutely great and I would recommend using that instead of the BD 0.3.  So get that size and sell your BD 0.3.

The 13.75 cam angle of the Friends and Dragons means they have a bit less range than the Camalots so:  the Dragons' maximums in range in each size are actually a tad smaller than the Camalot or Friend in each size.  So in addition to being lighter, the Friends are a bit bigger.

As for the extendable slings the Dragon is better IMHO.  When extended the total length of the sling vs the length of the stem is more than with the friend.  You just have to be sure to extend the bar tack side.  

The weight difference is not that much so unless you are going with the lightest in everything, I don't think it matters.  I mean if you have a 70m rope at 59g/m when you could be using a 60m rope at 48g/m you might not notice the difference with the cams when your rope is that much weight?

Worth a separate post is that it sounds like you can get the Dragons at 30% FROM YOUR LOCAL GEAR SHOP!!!!!

That sounds like a really good reason to buy those to me.

I have a full set of BD C4, and a full set of DMM Dragon 2. Prefer the Dragon in all sizes. Love the extendable sling. Thumb loop is not that important to me. Good climbers get used to the gear they use, so a thumb loop becomes irrelevant after a couple trips to the crag.

Totems don't have a thumb loop, per se, and they are wildly popular with the people that can afford them.

The purpose of the extendable sling on new friends is to get your Biner over the edge of the crack in horizontal placements. When you’re stretching your rope to link pitches you’ll notice the difference of having the slings extended on every piece. A biners length of extra sling doesn’t seem like much, but it definitely makes a difference. Whenever I climb with friends that have C4’s we place the WC’s first and use the C4’s when we runout. 

The current Friends are the only dual-axel cams that "fixed" the weird size range of the yellow cam.

coldfinger wrote: Worth a separate post is that it sounds like you can get the Dragons at 30% FROM YOUR LOCAL GEAR SHOP!!!!!

That sounds like a really good reason to buy those to me.

Its in quebec, Canada. 

coldfinger wrote: The WC Friends are pretty sweet!  That's what I built my rack on, largely because I could get them much cheaper than Dragons.

As for the Dragons........

I don't get the whole thumb loop thing.  For me most of the fumbling is getting them off my harness and then regrabbing them so I can place them.  A good racking carabiner took care of most of that for me.  I have UL master cams and love them.  There is a big reduction in bulk without the cable loop.

I have the 00 Dragon Cam which is absolutely great and I would recommend using that instead of the BD 0.3.  So get that size and sell your BD 0.3.

The 13.75 cam angle of the Friends and Dragons means they have a bit less range than the Camalots so:  the Dragons' maximums in range in each size are actually a tad smaller than the Camalot or Friend in each size.  So in addition to being lighter, the Friends are a bit bigger.

As for the extendable slings the Dragon is better IMHO.  When extended the total length of the sling vs the length of the stem is more than with the friend.  You just have to be sure to extend the bar tack side.  

The weight difference is not that much so unless you are going with the lightest in everything, I don't think it matters.  I mean if you have a 70m rope at 59g/m when you could be using a 60m rope at 48g/m you might not notice the difference with the cams when your rope is that much weight?

Thanks for your answer !!! Really appreciate the way you explain it .  You probably right about the thumbloop. And the weight doesnt mather to me that much. Will considered the deal!

In general the dragons are smaller than C4 and new Friends are larger for the same color. They are all good cams. Mixing them up gives great size overlap