Ladies picking up trad climbing - how to make that the best transition possible?

Hi there,

So my sweet half has started leading on gear. That was on her own initiative (not any push on my part to make that hapen). Not going to lie, I'm pretty stocked about that. While we could still trad before (she'd be happy to second me), going in a trad-only destination was less of an option then, because we both prefer to lead. She did half a dozen lead so far, easy grade for her, got '' type 2 fun '' scared. Other than that she's a confident 11/11+ sport climber.

I'm currently wondering what can I do make facilitate this transition/learning process. My goal is basically just to make sure that this initial interest translates into a style of climbing that's natural, that we can just practice regularly as we do sport climbing right now. I don't want that to be a fad that's been tried but kinda died out for whatever reason.

 I'd be happy to hear about ladies in here who have already gone through the process of becoming, say ''reasonnably confident leading on gear''. What where the main obstacle in your process? What did you do to make this easier? What are you looking for in your belayer/partner? Does that differ significantly from what you're expecting/looking for in sport climbing partners?

It might also be nice to hear from those who have NOT picked up trad. What's preventing you from doing so (other than just not interesting in the style, say)?

Thanks for the input!

She's not your project. Best thing you can do is learn to follow and clean. Quietly.

Franck Vee wrote:I'm currently wondering what can I do make facilitate this transition/learning process.

Probably asking her.

I'd be happy to hear about ladies in here who have already gone through the process of becoming, say ''reasonnably confident leading on gear''. What where the main obstacle in your process? What did you do to make this easier? What are you looking for in your belayer/partner? Does that differ significantly from what you're expecting/looking for in sport climbing partners?

I guess you started climbing on gear and skipped the bolts then? Else you could ask all this to yourself if you did the transition.

I agree with Maureen: Whoever is leading is the leader.

she'll figure it out, in my experience there is no need for assistance. trad isn't that big of a deal. i've found it best to shut up and be a mindful belayer.

Fran M wrote: I guess you started climbing on gear and skipped the bolts then? Else you could ask all this to yourself if you did the transition.

Well, I don't know, I've kind of always wanted to lead on gear and eventually just bought a rack. Whereas she initially didn't seemed interested at all...

Franck Vee wrote: 
Well, I don't know, I've kind of always wanted to lead on gear and eventually just bought a rack. Whereas she initially didn't seemed interested at all...

so you don't know whether there was a transition in your case because you always wanted to lead on gear, even while clipping bolts? hmmm... I'd say try in reply:

What where the main obstacle in your process? What did you do to make this easier? What are you looking for in your belayer/partner? Does that differ significantly from what you're expecting/looking for in sport climbing partners? 

Fran M wrote:

so you don't know whether there was a transition in your case because you always wanted to lead on gear, even while clipping bolts? hmmm... I'd say try in reply:

Right, I get your point.

Yeah, maybe I'm just over thinking stuff. I guess it's just I don't know of that many woman leading on gear.

Franck Vee wrote:

Right, I get your point.

Yeah, maybe I'm just over thinking stuff. I guess it's just I don't know of that many woman leading on gear.

This doesn’t really have anything to do with gender. It’s your relationship dynamic that you need to consider. 

Adrienne DiRosario wrote:

This doesn’t really have anything to do with gender. It’s your relationship dynamic that you need to consider. 

Fully agreed - but my reason for asking stems from that observation still. Perhaps my observations are biaised (e.g. I just happen to be a climbing community that have mostly guys leading on gear). Or perhaps that's actually a pretty valid observation (globally) and perhaps there is some gender component. Or... or a social one, that for whatever reason contribute to make it so. And so in case there IS some gender/social component... then I guess I'm somewhat worried to... I don't know, mess it up and loose my potential new trad partner.

Mentoring a new trad climber is an especially rewarding experience if your mentee turns out to be truly interested in trad climbing.  

The biggest risk is pushing the new trad climber too quickly.  Try to keep the new leader in her comfort zone for a while;  leading routes that are well below her ability and that she has also followed.  It takes time to learn to place gear well and more time to trust the gear you place.  In that line it is important inform them of their mistakes in a way that teaches rather than brings up a defensive reaction. A romantic relationship can make criticizing your partner's mistakes particularly difficult.  Taking a picture of a particularly bad piece of gear or leaving it in place and rapping the pitch together to look at it can help.  Be prepared to lead the route if the new leader does not think she is up for it.  Be prepared to retreat.  

Here is one of my favorite pictures.  The mentee was scared and place a perfect cam behind an obviously loose block.   Interestingly, the mentee skipped a perfect placement 5 feet above this.  It took only a second of looking at the picture for her to understand the mistake and she never made that mistake again.   This placement is also a danger to the belayer, if the leader had fallen at any point above this piece, even with a good piece above it, the rock would almost certainly have been dislodged and fallen on the belay.

There is lots to learn, much more than placing gear on lead especially if you are planning on trad climbing off the beaten path.

Learning to read a route is very important.  There are no bolts showing the way.

How do you communicate in windy conditions and stay safe.  I recommend the windy day rule where the rope is always on belay.  Leader builds the anchor, puts the follower on belay and pulls the rope up through the belay device.  That why the bottom belayer knows that he is on belay when the rope comes tight or else you are simul climbing.

There is building of anchors which can involve lots of different techniques and difficulties.  How to manage the rack so you have gear to build a belay.   What do you do if you don't have the gear.  Can you belay off a tree or a boulder.  Do you belay off the anchor or off the harness?

How do get off the mountain.  Especially if the descent is not clear.

None of this is really any different if the mentee is male or female.

Teaching a new leader is a great way to expand your knowledge.   Be patient and let the new leader set the pace of the education.

EDIT:

Praise especially good placements and belays.
Set attainable goals and celebrate your successes.  
Teach alternate ways to do the same thing.

Franck Vee wrote:.... becoming ... ''reasonnably confident leading on gear''. What where the main obstacle in your process? What did you do to make this easier? What are you looking for in your belayer/partner? Does that differ significantly from what you're expecting/looking for in sport climbing partners?

I wonder if the answers are really all that different than for men.  So far, I have not heard a response from the Ladies that really sounds all that different from what I have experienced with my climb partners of either gender or inbetween. (I know - this thread has not had so many responses yet.)

Still, I do think there are stereotypical gender tendencies in a climb-partner relationship that can affect not so much where this goes for Franck and his partner but the journey in getting to whatever that will be.  Franck’s asking you all is credit worthy.  He strikes me as someone who is going to learn something from your responses.

I think trad leading especially has to be strongly intrinsically motivated. If someone decides it's not for them, there's not much you can do to change that which will turn out well.

I started out climbing trad, so the only transition I had was from following to leading. I was super psyched to lead but worried my partners would be bummed to share leading and would rather be leading all the time, and/or be annoyed to follow super easy grades as I was learning. Reassurance that they were equally psyched to follow and really looking forward to sharing leading equally and not having to lead every pitch helped a lot. That might be very specific to me?

More generally, I think it's always important when in the mentee stage of anything, to have many or at least several different mentors to learn from. You get a wider range of advice, techniques, and feedback and a better opportunity to evaluate what you're learning and critically think about what works best for you, along with an appreciation for there being more than one "right" way to do things, rather than learning only one way from one person, which is limiting and sometimes leads to new leaders clinging dogmatically to one way of doing things.

All this goes double, I think, when there is a significant prior relationship between partners. Whether romantic significant other, siblings, parent/child, or best friends since childhood - there's just extra "stuff" tied up in that relationship that can get in the way of growing in a new skillset. You can support your partner climbing with other people, and maybe make some introductions of safe partners you would vouch for if you're better connected in your local climbing community than she. I think there's also a lot of value in two newish (but compentent in the basics) trad leaders teaming up. There's a lot of growth that for some can only happen when there isn't a far more experienced partner to hand the rope to when things get hard or scary.

Awesome that you're looking for ways to best support your partner! Hope you both have many great climbing adventures ahead!

Agree with Em! I also started with trad - but it was a long time before I started leading. I had cleaned a lot of gear by that time. One of the barriers for me was feeling slow and being worried about holding things up - especially when it felt like I was taking forever to go off belay and build anchors. Having a partner (who is also my significant other) be patient with climbing easier grades and not rushing was key.

It was (and is) really satisfying for me to swing leads on long easy climbs. If he wants to climb harder some days I will follow and enjoy that too - but he always offers to have me lead (never assumes I don’t want to). We will also pick our pitches and sometimes lead in blocks if there are stacked pitches that I don’t feel comfortable leading instead of swinging leads. He would also basically aid the pitch when following to test my gear and give me feedback when I was first starting. 
I don’t think breaking into trad is gender specific but do recognize there is an additional relationship dynamic at play with the OP’s question. Be supportive, don’t push her to do anything she doesn’t want to do, and climb safe!

The "gender difference", if any at all? Women don't appreciate men deciding stuff for us, speaking on our behalf when we never even  asked their ​opinion,​​​ well, you get the idea. ;-)

What will I want if I ever lead on gear? Same thing I want now, if I'm going for it. A partner I really, really, trust. And? Who trusts me. ​Maybe even more than I trust myself sometimes, lol!

The essence of leading, is making all ​your own decisions. Respect that, be a good follower, be patient, be stoked!!!!! for your partner, and really listen. Or at least be quiet and let her talk.

Best to you! I think you've got this, sir! Helen

1st) There is no difference between a man or woman learning Trad in terms of skill/confidence/etc.. The only difference is some people's preconceived notion that women are worse and/or less interested in Trad, which is ridiculous and can create a needless barrier of entry for women. This post should be in the Trad forum.

With that said, there seem to be two separate things you're looking for advice on. One is how to nurture interest in Trad and the other is how to deal with a climbing partner that is also your romantic partner. Very different issues but fair to ask for help with.

I can't speak to the latter but as a new Trad leader I can to the former.

The three most important things IMO are: choose very safe routes with obvious pro, never push the follower out of their comfort zone , and make sure your own practices as a leader are textbook safe. Nothing will scare a follower more than losing trust in the leader; if you're climbing in an ultra safe way it will inspire confidence.

Finding easy but super fun multi pitch routes is a great way to show how cool Trad can be. Don't be in a rush to improve your followers skill, look for routes that are safe, fun and give that "wow" moment when you reach the top.

Jeffrey K wrote: The only difference is some people's preconceived notion that women are worse and/or less interested in Trad, which is ridiculous and can create a needless barrier of entry for women. 

Interesting that you write this, then perhaps continue on to subconsciously prove your own point? The OP's very first sentence is that his partner is starting to lead trad, yet all of your advice frames the OP as leader and his partner as a new follower. 

Men v women lol; what about just people learning trad?

Being a confident 5.11+ sport climber will ultimately be an advantage, but it may be a disadvantage in the short term.

No difference between men and women when climbing together?

Some good friends went off on an all-women climbing day. They had a great time.

Afterwards, one of them remarked: 
 “It was fun like playing without the adults where we got to figure everything out for ourselves.” And this was not from the strongest climber in the group.

I am certain it was part humor. But I also think more.  And I know it was just some people I know. Hardly a large population sample.

Anyway, why would she have that sentiment? I suspect it has much to do with how men and women tend to behave when around each other.  No?

While I do think that there are differences in things like risk tolerance/aversion between men and women As a group, I don’t think it is particularly relevant in this case.

Be supportive and encouraging. Climb a lot of easy terrain, but choose routes/areas that are fun, and preferably something that you would think is fun for you, too, rather than than something that you are willing to slog through, for her sake. If you can go to new areas where you haven’t been before, where everything is new and exciting for you, too, that’s great.

Avoid any indication of impatience with her, the long time it takes to sew up an easy climb, or boredom with the chosen routes/grades. I’m sure she would easily pick up on the vibe, being your life partner, as well as the climbing partner. If you are genuinely excited for her, and happy about your day, you hardly need to do anything else, if she is as self-motivated in this pursuit as you say she is.

If you have other friends who enjoy trad climbing, and if there are opportunities for you to go with couple other people, and switch up partners for a day, so she climbs with other people, too, it would be helpful to her to climb with others.

But ultimately, really, just be a good partner that you presumably are, and that’s it.

I’m one of those people who toyed with trad, but I don’t consider myself a trad climber, even though I have led respectable grades on gear, back when I was climbing trad more regularly m, and have taken falls on gear.

For me it was all about the partners. When I climbed with people who were experienced gear climbers, and we went to areas that were predominantly trad, I plugged gear. It was cool enough, but when these people moved away, I stopped climbing trad. Now I occasionally climb an easy route or two, when I get to climb with these people again, but that’s about it. 

I really enjoy the process of redpointing hard sport climbs, I love the movement style of overhanging sport climbing, my home area has a lifetime supply of sport climbing, and I have a much higher threshold of confidence for a trad climbing partner, because I myself am not that experienced, so I want someone much more experienced than me.

So realistically, the only way I would pick up trad climbing again, for myself, is if I were to move someplace where gear climbing was the only good climbing to be had. I don’t think of trad climbing as the end goal in itself, the end goal for me has always been the climbing. If this is fun climbing, and the only way I can do it would be to place gear, I would be placing gear. Otherwise—nah. 

Franck Vee wrote: 
I'm currently wondering what can I do make facilitate this transition/learning process. My goal is basically just to make sure that this initial interest translates into a style of climbing that's natural, that we can just practice regularly as we do sport climbing right now. I don't want that to be a fad that's been tried but kinda died out for whatever reason.

 I'd be happy to hear about ladies in here who have already gone through the process of becoming, say ''reasonnably confident leading on gear''. What where the main obstacle in your process? What did you do to make this easier? What are you looking for in your belayer/partner? Does that differ significantly from what you're expecting/looking for in sport climbing partners?

Franck, I can totally relate to your excitement about the joys of trad climbing, and your excitement about having your main climbing partner wanting to potentially do a lot more of this type of climbing with you!  I love trad climbing.  It's a little funny (and shocking!) to hear you say you don't see that many women leading trad climbs, because when I started climbing, there were few other options - sport climbing was in its infancy.

What motivated me to become a lead (trad) climber was that my husband, who introduced me to climbing, transitioned to another sport and basically quit climbing about a year after I started climbing.  I couldn't imagine anyone wanting me as a partner unless I could be a real partner, that is, to switch leads as much as possible.  My passion for wanting to climb led to getting out and doing it and pushing myself.  So with your partner, if she has the passion to lead trad, it will happen.  Your goals about "making sure" and "not wanting" are not in your control.

I agree with the sentiment that there is not gender-specificity in having the desire to lead trad.  What any more experienced leader/partner can do is:  provide good opportunities for the less experienced partner to practice; be patient;  don't push leads that the person says they are not ready for; provide non-judgmental feedback about the quality of gear placements.  The stronger and more technically proficient I became as a crack climber, the more confident I became as a leader - and that was also facilitated by following a lot of routes that were harder than I would have been comfortable leading, and cleaning a lot of gear placements.