Training kneebars

Is there an easy way to train kneebars?

I was kneebarring on my proj the other day and I tried to put full bodyweight on my leg... it felt like I was about to rip my thigh off my body and my core was going to explode.  I figure there is a way to train these muscles without needing to rappel into the proj and do repeaters on the actual kneebar... but how?  Certainly someone's thought of this before?!

I recall Ondra saying he trained kneebars for Silence to the point he could get a 5min rest in a bar where at first he couldn't hang for more than a few seconds.  I want to be like Adam.  (Except for the hair and neck.)

Single leg calf raises. I go for endurance, so like sets of 50 x3 each side. For best results do it on the edge of a stair or low block so that your heels can drop below toe level. Also work on big toe strength, so do raises up on to your big toes (really hard at first). I prefer really soft shoes so I need that toe strength.

Also pistol squats and general core shit. Planks, crunches etc.

I see people practice on a campus board - they get their knee stuck below the board itself, and step onto a wooden strip below the board itself (and inset quite a bit) - the wood strip below the board is often used if you can't use the campus board without feet.

I try to find knee bars anywhere in my gym and see if I can hold them. It's fun

Long Ranger wrote: I see people practice on a campus board - they get their knee stuck below the board itself, and step onto a wooden strip below the board itself (and inset quite a bit) - the wood strip below the board is often used if you can't use the campus board without feet.

You can mimic this exercise with loop bands, one under one foot and the other over a knee.

caesar.salad wrote:

You can mimic this exercise with loop bands, one under one foot and the other over a knee.

I honestly don't think so - the way I've seen it done was literally doing a kneebar, complete with just how painful it was  - to the point where people do this with those hip pads on. I was under the impression that that's why kneebars are so hard - they're painful! The leverage of your entire body is being focus on the fulcrum of your leg. Not because you need to like, work on calf strength by doing calf raises. 

Long Ranger wrote:

I honestly don't think so - the way I've seen it done was literally doing a kneebar, complete with just how painful it was  - to the point where people do this with those hip pads on. I was under the impression that that's why kneebars are so hard - they're painful! The leverage of your entire body is being focus on the fulcrum of your leg. Not because you need to like, work on calf strength by doing calf raises. 

This.  I think you have to actually do the kneebar to train it.  And I don't know where/how other than on the route.

John RB wrote:

This.  I think you have to actually do the kneebar to train it.  And I don't know where/how other than on the route.

I'll try to take a photo of me doing it (or trying to do it) on the campus board. Plenty of very strong Rifle climbers in the gym (me being not one of them).

Long Ranger wrote:

I honestly don't think so - the way I've seen it done was literally doing a kneebar, complete with just how painful it was  - to the point where people do this with those hip pads on. I was under the impression that that's why kneebars are so hard - they're painful! The leverage of your entire body is being focus on the fulcrum of your leg. Not because you need to like, work on calf strength by doing calf raises. 

Oh I misunderstood your description. Yes thats a good idea then. 

You can mediate the pain with a thick kneebar pad. I like the fat send pads. The wide ones work best for finicky kneebars because they slide less.

 I feel like sport routes tend to have better kneebars. Boulder problems with kneebars can require a ton of calf strength that you dont get without training. I used those training exercises this past fall and noticed a significant improvement.

John RB wrote: Is there an easy way to train kneebars?

First, take the word "easy" out of the above sentence.   

Yes, by doing the exact kneebar (vertical, horizontal or diagonal) you want to get better at.  You need to build a frame out of 2x lumber that can be anchored across from, or above, a wall or the other side of the frame at the appropriate distance.  

Let's say you have a convenient interior corner in your garage  and you want to train a vertical kneebar.  Mount a foothold on the 2x4 about 3' off the ground so you can dangle your other leg.   You might be able to bar in the corner without building anything, but likely you'll need to screw some scrap lumber opposite the foothold for your knee.  

Horizontal ones are easier: a small 2x4 screwed horizontally across two studs ~3' off the ground for your foot, another one 2' or so above it for your knee.  Wear a pad and/or angle the top piece so it's more comfortable.  

I have a ~2' gap in my basement bouldering wall in order to access my fuse box.  I can kneebar with either leg across the two parallel, vertical studs.

John Byrnes wrote: First, take the word "easy" out of the above sentence.   

Yes, by doing the exact kneebar (vertical, horizontal or diagonal) you want to get better at.  You need to build a frame out of 2x lumber that can be anchored across from, or above, a wall or the other side of the frame at the appropriate distance.  

Let's say you have a convenient interior corner in your garage  and you want to train a vertical kneebar.  Mount a foothold on the 2x4 about 3' off the ground so you can dangle your other leg.   You might be able to bar in the corner without building anything, but likely you'll need to screw some scrap lumber opposite the foothold for your knee.  

Horizontal ones are easier: a small 2x4 screwed horizontally across two studs ~3' off the ground for your foot, another one 2' or so above it for your knee.  Wear a pad and/or angle the top piece so it's more comfortable.  

I have a ~2' gap in my basement bouldering wall in order to access my fuse box.  I can kneebar with either leg across the two parallel, vertical studs.

Just to clarify, John, by a "vertical kneebar" do you mean your leg is vertical or the crack is vertical?  I think it's the latter based on your description.

Also, do you knee against a 2x4 or something wider?  I'm wearing pads so I should be able to mitigate the pain somewhat, but I wouldn't mind making things uber comfy since the muscles involved are the main thing I'm trying to train, not the pain tolerance.

I did a kneebar the other day. I think it is like crack climbing. You've got to be able to withstand ridiculous amounts of pain.

John RB wrote:

Just to clarify, John, by a "vertical kneebar" do you mean your leg is vertical or the crack is vertical?  I think it's the latter based on your description.

I'm not sure there's an accepted vernacular, and it kinda depends how steep the "rock" is to distinguish between them.

But you're right, by vertical I mean the two surfaces you are barring across are (more or less) vertical and your hips hang below the barring leg.  For example, you could theoretically bar across vertical wall-studs if they were the right distance apart.  

Horizontal kneebars are often possible where ever you find a small roof and a good footer below it; your leg is vertical, more or less, and you use your calf to press up into it so your hips are about level, or even above, your knee.   You can often use the other leg to help.

Also, do you knee against a 2x4 or something wider?  I'm wearing pads so I should be able to mitigate the pain somewhat, but I wouldn't mind making things uber comfy since the muscles involved are the main thing I'm trying to train, not the pain tolerance.

I agree.  Yes, a 2x4 is fine if you're not pressing against the corner.   It's fair to comfortize whatever surface you're using.  

I find it's my core and stabilizing muscles around my hips that need conditioning, in addition to learning to trust it, relax and breathe.   Also valuable is to learn the balance and how to use your hands and other leg to make it better (stable), and find the lowest energy state.  (BTW, I'm no expert on knee-bars compared to others, I just have done some training in my basement for specific routes.)

Seth Bleazard wrote: I did a kneebar the other day. I think it is like crack climbing. You've got to be able to withstand ridiculous amounts of pain.

Just like crack climbing, some jams and some kneebars are so comfy you don't want to leave 'em.

John Byrnes wrote: Horizontal kneebars are often possible where ever you find a small roof and a good footer below it; your leg is vertical, more or less, and you use your calf to press up into it so your hips are about level, or even above, your knee.   You can often use the other leg to help.

This is what I'm interested in training.  However, my lack of home-improvement skills has me visualizing a bunch of setups that I think wouldn't bear weight very well, and the last thing I want is for the whole contraption to explode while I'm hanging from it.

I have a finished garage (well, it's sheetrock without exposed studs) and I'm more than willing to destroy it.  The studs are easy to find.  I imagine trying to put a horizontal 2x4 diagonally across a corner by cutting the ends at an angle so that they're flush (already too hard) and screwing them into vertical 2x6's that are attached to the studs.

In my mind, I imagine the 2x4 would flex under my body weight.  And a parallel 2x4 above that would upward flex as my knee pressed up.  Maybe there's a way to reinforce this but once again, I have no skills here.

I agree.  Yes, a 2x4 is fine if you're not pressing against the corner.   It's fair to comfortize whatever surface you're using.  

I find it's my core and stabilizing muscles around my hips that need conditioning, in addition to learning to trust it, relax and breathe.   Also valuable is to learn the balance and how to use your hands and other leg to make it better (stable), and find the lowest energy state.  (BTW, I'm no expert on knee-bars compared to others, I just have done some training in my basement for specific routes.)

This is spot on.  Core and hips feel stressed when I'm doing a hard kneebar and I'd like to get those stronger as well as learn psychologically to relax and breathe in that unusual body position.

if you feel the need to train, you're doing something wrong.

but if anything, if you're going to learn how to kneebar, listen to Caesar.Salad. not only does he have a sick OG SEND knee pad, my man knows how to traverse a choss-ass cave upside down from end-to-end, without breaking a sweat.

I love kneebars. The most stimuli I get is my calf, and the point of contact in my thigh to knee area. The calf tires out fast, and the pressure on the thigh is painful. The calf needs to get trained for endurance, and the thigh needs to get calloused. Only two points that need to get trained!  People will say you need to train core, but you can't have enough core strength in climbing! 

John RB wrote: This is what I'm interested in training.  However, my lack of home-improvement skills has me visualizing a bunch of setups that I think wouldn't bear weight very well, and the last thing I want is for the whole contraption to explode while I'm hanging from it.
I have a finished garage (well, it's sheetrock without exposed studs) and I'm more than willing to destroy it.  The studs are easy to find.  I imagine trying to put a horizontal 2x4 diagonally across a corner by cutting the ends at an angle so that they're flush (already too hard) and screwing them into vertical 2x6's that are attached to the studs.
In my mind, I imagine the 2x4 would flex under my body weight.  And a parallel 2x4 above that would upward flex as my knee pressed up.  Maybe there's a way to reinforce this but once again, I have no skills here.

Doesn't Horst or the Andersen brothers have a chapter in the back of the book covering basic carpentry?  Just kidding.   But seriously, you'll need to build/hack something to simulate the position.   A couple 8x8x16 concrete blocks (for the footer) next to an unfinished basement stairway or really heavy table/counter?  Or a place in your local climbing gym with a big volume?

The finished garage (with insulation behind the drywall?) makes it less attractive.   Maybe make friends with a neighbor who has a miter saw?  A 6-pack does wonders.   Oh, for over flexing, just screw two 2x4's together and turn them on edge.  

John Byrnes wrote: Doesn't Horst or the Andersen brothers have a chapter in the back of the book covering basic carpentry?  Just kidding.   But seriously, you'll need to build/hack something to simulate the position.   A couple 8x8x16 concrete blocks (for the footer) next to an unfinished basement stairway or really heavy table/counter?  Or a place in your local climbing gym with a big volume?

The finished garage (with insulation behind the drywall?) makes it less attractive.   Maybe make friends with a neighbor who has a miter saw?  A 6-pack does wonders.   Oh, for over flexing, just screw two 2x4's together and turn them on edge.  

I called my brother in law (who has "actual skills"(tm)) and he suggested mounting heavy-duty shelf brackets into the wall-studs in the garage then using plywood for the bottom platform (3' off the floor) and top platform (about 2' higher).  I figure I will do this and maybe use your anti-flex idea as well!  I'll mount the top board a little bit too high, put t-nuts in it, and then use some large flat climbing holds to kneebar against.  That gives me a variety of textures and sizes to play with. 

I already have a nice DeWalt Mitre saw as well as other hand saws so I should be able to get things cut just right.  I was just unsure how to mount to the wall studs, but the shelf brackets should work I think.  At the end of this I can buy some beer and invite all my friends over for a kneebar contest.  

Thanks John! :)

caesar.salad wrote:

I feel like sport routes tend to have better kneebars. Boulder problems with kneebars can require a ton of calf strength...

The perception that sport routes have "better kneebars" probably comes from the fact that most of the time, on a sport route, you're often using the best (most worthwhile) kneebars to rest. If you're using a kneebar on a boulder problem it is often to help you move from one hold to the next, though there are certainly kneebar rests that are used on long boulder problems. Likewise, I've encountered plenty of kneebar boulder problems on Rifle sport routes. When someone refers to a "knee scum" that is likely what they mean.

John RB wrote:

I called my brother in law (who has "actual skills"(tm)) and he suggested mounting heavy-duty shelf brackets into the wall-studs in the garage then using plywood for the bottom platform (3' off the floor) and top platform (about 2' higher).  I figure I will do this and maybe use your anti-flex idea as well!  I'll mount the top board a little bit too high, put t-nuts in it, and then use some large flat climbing holds to kneebar against.  That gives me a variety of textures and sizes to play with. 

Sounds like a good solution, and you can mount a shelf when you're done ;-)

I already have a nice DeWalt Mitre saw as well as other hand saws so I should be able to get things cut just right.  I was just unsure how to mount to the wall studs, but the shelf brackets should work I think.  At the end of this I can buy some beer and invite all my friends over for a kneebar contest.  

Sounds perfect.

Thanks John! :)

You're welcome.  And BTW, knee-pads are a personal choice, like shoes.  I like the Send pad better than the RnR ones.  YMMV.