Self belay lead climbing with Black Diamond ATC Guide - 8mm Twin Ropes

I would like to know if there is any flaw in the system that I have come up with for self belaying using the BD ATC Guide.  I plan to use this system for easy (<5.4) and short (20-30 ft) pitch on general mountaineering routes. The idea is to make it autoblock by using a autoblock/klemheist. I would anchor myself at the bottom of the climb, with the twin ropes, pass that through the ATC, Extend the ATC from my harness using a sling, use a autoblock/klemheist know from my belay loop as an autoblock system. Basically, converting my ATC to a grigri. I will have to rappel down and clean the route.  

I tested this set up at home by hanging from pull-up bars and the klemehist knot seems to hold my fall well.

I realize the challenge would be getting a regular slack, but I can manage that by taking out some extra slack without being too ricky on an easy <5.4 climb for a short pitch. I plan to use this technique on East Ridge Direct route on Mount Bancroft (Colorado).  

Any input will be  greatly appreciated. 

I would be surprised if that setup will hold a real fall. 

What Jared said. Also, how would you back it up, knots on the slack side below the hitch and ATC? That might be a real cluster if the hitch fails and everything gets jammed up (but better than dying).

Since you're going solo, why bother with two ropes? Why not carry a single, likely lighter than two twins, and use a Grigri since you're already planning to self-feed slack to move? That would be simpler and safer, and you can just use the Grigri to rap, clean, and re-climb pitches. There's even a way to manage loops of slack off a harness so the Grigri feeds pretty smoothly, but that has drawbacks on low-angle, blocky terrain like that you'd likely be on.

But if there's a walkoff and you don't need twins for long raps, I'd just go with a Grigri and a single but carry an ATC in case you need it.

Questions about this setup come up every couple of months or so and the general consensus has been that it works, but there are systems that work better. If the grade is well below what you're generally comfortable leading, French Freeing would seem (to me) to be the safer and more efficient option, as you're not futzing with ropes and pulling out slack. The Kleimheist gives me pause. I don't know that I'd ever want to load that sling-to-rope setup. Hanging from your pull up bars is one thing, but a true dynamic fall over less than vertical terrain sounds... well, unsound. Since the climbing is short and quite easy, I would solo or French Free. Give it a try and let us know how it works out!

No. 

Robert S wrote: What Jared said. Also, how would you back it up, knots on the slack side below the hitch and ATC? That might be a real cluster if the hitch fails and everything gets jammed up (but better than dying).

I haven't seen people back up their grigri. Is the breaking capability of a grigri objectively more safer than the autoblock or klemheist? Sincerely asking.

Since you're going solo, why bother with two ropes? Why not carry a single, likely lighter than two twins, and use a Grigri since you're already planning to self-feed slack to move? That would be simpler and safer, and you can just use the Grigri to rap, clean, and re-climb pitches. There's even a way to manage loops of slack off a harness so the Grigri feeds pretty smoothly, but that has drawbacks on low-angle, blocky terrain like that you'd likely be on.

I have a 70m 9.8mm, which weighs as much as a rock. I also have a 30m 8mm. I can buy another 30m for cheap. Together they will weigh 40% less than the 9.8mm rope. Lot of weight saving. Plus I will be investing in gear I can use in future.

But if there's a walkoff and you don't need twins for long raps, I'd just go with a Grigri and a single but carry an ATC in case you need it.

NateGfunk wrote: No. 

You mean no flaws or not to do it?

Appreciate the comments people. This is helpful. 

Are you proposing to lead on an extended abseil setup? Sounds sketch to me, not to mention horribly annoying. Enough turns on the prusik to hold a lead fall (which is a lot more force than needed to grip the rope on abseil!) is gonna be horrible to pull slack through, especially while leading. I really can't imagine doing that, it would really suck.

I would use clove hitches on lockers, or skip the rope altogether.

I would avoid the OPs system in theory it might work but in practice i can almost guarantee a clusterfu$k.  I think the best system for short belays over easy terrain as described would be the following:
  Grigri on an auto locker attached to the harness with a small sinch top pack with your rope neatly stacked inside feeding snugly out of the top of the pack.  That way you could pull enough slack out of the pack over your shoulder to keep the grigri feeding smoothly and avoid tangles.  

Ive done a fair amount of rope soloing and the grigri with a mini traxion on the harness to adjust the loop of slack on the brake strand end of the gri works amazingly well.  There is a sweet spot in the size of the loop where it feeds on its own but wont auto-feed (creating slack in the system.)  I've also used a silent partner in place of the grigri but thats neither here nor there. Granted this system lacks redundancy.  It is however the fastest and simplest way I've found to move over moderate terrain.  

Have fun out there!

Ash:  When are you planning on doing the route? There is probably quite a bit of snow up there now and for at least another month. It would be a real alpine adventure in snowy conditions. If you are going to wait until the ridge is pretty well melted out it is a lot more do-able. The crux for me was moving fast enough to beat the potential afternoon thunderstorm. Spending a bunch of time trying to self-belay out of the notch will make life harder. I would recommend a quick rap off the fixed anchor and then free solo up the other side of the notch. It is a little exposed but not too hard. Plus I don't really remember great gear opportunities and a fall of any length would be a drag on that blocky terrain.
It is an great intro to Colorado peak-bagging though!

Ash Waghray wrote: I haven't seen people back up their grigri. Is the breaking capability of a grigri objectively more safer than the autoblock or klemheist? Sincerely asking.

Yes.

Most people don't back up a Grigri or other ABD when lead soloing, but like the Soloist, it won't catch you in an upside-down fall; think of how you lose the assisted breaking if you load a Grigri backwards. A Silent Partner (good luck getting one without spending an obscene amount) or Revo will catch an upside-down fall. The SP instructions call for backup knots; those of the ABD devices do not because they are not manufactured for lead soloing.

There is a rope solo group on FB where people discuss all kinds of systems.

I have a 70m 9.8mm, which weighs as much as a rock. I also have a 30m 8mm. I can buy another 30m for cheap. Together they will weigh 40% less than the 9.8mm rope. Lot of weight saving. Plus I will be investing in gear I can use in future.

Okay, I see. But given the drawbacks of the system you want to use, I'd shoulder the extra weight and go with the 70, which also gives you more rapping distance and the ability to do longer pitches, since it opens up several better systems.

On your set up: if I read it correctly (and a couple of people upthread also seem to read it the same way), you're essentially describing rope soloing with your ATC set up in an "up-side-down rappel" and an autoblock or klemheist backup to grab the brake strand if you fall. Bad idea. You're not even talking about setting up the ATC Guide in autoblock or guide mode (which is also not a good idea).

On the route: the Direct Start of the Bancroft East Ridge is a fun way to start a long class 3/4 ridge traverse if you move fast and efficient, but the direct start is only a small portion of the east ridge. Once you get on the ridge, you still have hours of class 3/4 scrambling to do, not to mention a rappel (if you don't want to downclimb it). Rope soloing the direct start is anything but fast and efficient. With all that leading, rappelling, cleaning, and toproping, I expect you'll spend hours just on the Direct Start, which can be bypassed in half an hour tops? If you want any chance of actually completing the east ridge, either bypass the direct start or free solo it. Unless your goal is not to topout on Bancroft, but spend hours practicing rope soloing a 5.4. I just did the Bancroft east ridge (not the direct start) a couple of weeks ago, there's still tons of snow. It's more of a mountaineering route than a rock climbing/scrambling route right now. I brought a 60m rope for the rappel into the notch and wished I didn't and just downclimbed it. The 5.2 out of the notch can also be bypassed by class 4 scrambling on either side of the notch (I went climber's right). The whole thing took me 8.5 hours, which was much longer than I expected. I'm fairly acclimatized to the elevation, move at an average to slightly above average pace. Haulling a 60m rope, snowshoes, mountaineering ax, and crampons was not exactly fun other than for training.

All,

Thanks for your input. This is the reason to have a great community to shoot down your whacky ideas for good reason ;). But i hear you guys loud and clear. I am myself not comfortable in using this system on vertical rock with potential for dynamic fall. I was thinking of low angle low class 5 short pitches where there will not be a dynamic fall.  these are short pitches where most experienced people will just free solo. Since i am a wuss, I wanted a backup to prevent my slow slide in case i lose control. so i would leave excess slack to prevent slack issues as i move up. I am aware of using the grigri, but implicit in my question was to come up with an approach for slim twin ropes. But based on your input here, there appear to be better ways to do it. It seems the options are: solo, find a partner, or use grigri.

aikibujin wrote: On your set up: if I read it correctly (and a couple of people upthread also seem to read it the same way), you're essentially describing rope soloing with your ATC set up in an "up-side-down rappel" and an autoblock or klemheist backup to grab the brake strand if you fall. Bad idea. You're not even talking about setting up the ATC Guide in autoblock or guide mode (which is also not a good idea).

On the route: the Direct Start of the Bancroft East Ridge is a fun way to start a long class 3/4 ridge traverse if you move fast and efficient, but the direct start is only a small portion of the east ridge. Once you get on the ridge, you still have hours of class 3/4 scrambling to do, not to mention a rappel (if you don't want to downclimb it). Rope soloing the direct start is anything but fast and efficient. With all that leading, rappelling, cleaning, and toproping, I expect you'll spend hours just on the Direct Start, which can be bypassed in half an hour tops? If you want any chance of actually completing the east ridge, either bypass the direct start or free solo it. Unless your goal is not to topout on Bancroft, but spend hours practicing rope soloing a 5.4. I just did the Bancroft east ridge (not the direct start) a couple of weeks ago, there's still tons of snow. It's more of a mountaineering route than a rock climbing/scrambling route right now. I brought a 60m rope for the rappel into the notch and wished I didn't and just downclimbed it. The 5.2 out of the notch can also be bypassed by class 4 scrambling on either side of the notch (I went climber's right). The whole thing took me 8.5 hours, which was much longer than I expected. I'm fairly acclimatized to the elevation, move at an average to slightly above average pace. Haulling a 60m rope, snowshoes, mountaineering ax, and crampons was not exactly fun other than for training.

Thanks for your input regarding the route. I do concede that the scrambling will be long, but i don't know if i will be spending hours getting into and out of the notch. And I plan to compensate by starting quite early. The weather appears to be quite pleasant (relatively of course) early next week when i plan to climb, though there will likely be a lot of snow after the recent dump. And the main reason for this post is to use 50% lighter twin ropes as opposed to my 70m 9.8 to allow me to move faster. Nonetheless based on valuable input from you and others, I am reassessing the plan. Can you provide more information on the route? How is the rap station? did you use your own sling or the existing slings? did you leave your sling there? how was your hike through the chimney? 

the setup sounds like a total PITA. if it is short and easy i would just use a clove hitch on a locker on your harness.  give yourself a big wad of slack, bust moves to a stance, adjust the clove for more slack, repeat.  way easier and way faster.

Clove & locker should be your baseline for most simple and foolproof self belay. Devices like the grigri might feed more easily but usually sacrifice a bit of security of the foolproof clove. Your solution will be both harder to feed slack with AND less secure than the clove.

It's probably more secure to just solo it than mess with this setup

agreed. i didnt mention the cove hitch on a locker, but that is a very good option as well - probably most suitable for my situation.

Ash Waghray wrote:

but i don't know if i will be spending hours getting into and out of the notch. And I plan to compensate by starting quite early. The weather appears to be quite pleasant (relatively of course) early next week when i plan to climb, though there will likely be a lot of snow after the recent dump. And the main reason for this post is to use 50% lighter twin ropes as opposed to my 70m 9.8 to allow me to move faster. Nonetheless based on valuable input from you and others, I am reassessing the plan. Can you provide more information on the route? How is the rap station? did you use your own sling or the existing slings? did you leave your sling there? how was your hike through the chimney? 

No, I don't think it will take anyone hours to get in and out of the notch, but I think there is some confusion on which route you're actually talking about. In your OP you asked about Bancroft East Ridge Direct. I always thought "East Ridge Direct" (as listed on MP) meant climbing the headwall directly above Reynolds Lake (seen in the photo below), that adds a few hundred feet of 5.easy climbing. I assumed that's where you're going to do your roped solo, and it will definitely take you hours to get up that if you're going to mess around with rope soloing.

There is also the regular "Bancroft East Ridge" route described by Dave Cooper in his Colorado Snow Climbs book. In his description you gain the ridge from the southeast on some grass slopes (or as a few weeks ago, moderate snow slopes). That's the "bypass" to the direct start I was talking about.

Rap stations looked fine. The higher rap station had fairly new webbings when I looked at it, I wouldn't hesitate to rap on that except that it's set a little back from an edge, and I don't like to run my rope over an edge if I can help it. There's a lower rap station that can be accessed with some easy scrambling. The webbings were older with some signs of wear, but nothing too concerning. I was comfortable rapping off that anchor so I didn't leave any of my sings. Still, bring some webbing just in case something had gone up in the last couple of weeks and chewed on the webbing. With all that snow it seems unlikely any critters would be out and about, but I did see animal tracks and scat on one of the snow ridges we crossed.

Not sure what other information I can give. It was a straight forward scramble, pretty fun, but I kind of regret bringing the rope. The beta I read indicated that you need a 60m rope for the rappel, that may be true from the top anchor. But I used the lower anchor, and there is quite a bit of snow in the notch which probably made the ground higher. My rappel was about 25-30 feet, very anti-climatic considering that I hauled a 60m rope just for the rappel. And like I mentioned before I used the class 4 bypass out of the notch, so hauling all that rope up there felt like a huge waste of energy.

I'm not sure what chimney you're referring to, I don't remember any chimneys on that whole route.

This is great information. Appreciate it. I think the main route is called the ERD. The 3 pitch start is an alternate start I believe. I could be wrong.

The chimneys are the class 4 or class 3 options on the right apparently when you hit the second crux at the headwall, based on route descriptions.