Justifying the risk of dangerous climbing

I have been becoming increasingly interested  in the psychology that surrounds why people are willing to risk and put their lives on the line in the pursuit of climbing. With the increase in climbing sport over the last few years a large emphasis on safety has been put on the climbing, but there are still many climbers out there who like to push the envelope of what is humanly possible in climbing ( expedition climbers, free soloists, and alpinists for example). These types of climbers go in well knowing there is a large possibility they may meet their end in the mountain, I'd like to start a discussion on what makes these types of climbers different psychologically from regular sports climbers, what motivates/draws people to push the envelope in climbing, and how the risk of this type of climbing can be justified.

Jp Villano wrote:  I'd like to start a discussion on what makes these types of climbers different psychologically from regular sports climbers, what motivates/draws people to push the envelope in climbing, and how the risk of this type of climbing can be justified. 

Go ahead and start. What do you think makes them different?

The beauty of climbing is the fact that you dont need to justify the risk to anyone. Theres no commitee or panel of judges needed for approval. If you want to solo some remote unclimbed alpine wall all you need to do is strap on your crampons and don your ice axes. 

The book "Beyond Risk" by Nicholas O'Connell (1993) provides some insight into this question through interviews with then-top climbers who either had pushed, or were then pushing the envelope in both pure rock, sport, alpine, and the high ranges. But...like the title implies, it covers more than just the "why" question of risk.

I'll address this post by passing along a book recommendation that I got from these forums.

"Kiss or Kill" by Mark Twight offers some great insight into this topic. Like him or not, Twight does not shy away from saying that he is addicted to climbing on the edge and pushing himself as far as he can. Through this process he explores the impact this addiction has on the rest of his life and how his perspective has changed over time. Really good book.

Chicks.  

As Ryan says" Kiss or Kill" another good book on the subject.

The first thing that came to mind while watching Free Solo and seeing Alex’s girlfriend was....“You’re leaving that van why??!!”

Jp Villano wrote: I have been becoming increasingly interested  in the psychology that surrounds why people are willing to risk and put their lives on the line in the pursuit of climbing. Being that I have always had a love for climbing and have taken up outdoor climbing mostly forgoing the use of rope and protection because it is the ultimate meditation to be in control on an exposed route high up in the air. With the increase in climbing sport over the last few years a large emphasis on safety has been put on the climbing, but there are still many climbers out there who like to push the envelope of what is humanly possible in climbing (ie. expedition climbers, free soloists, and alpinists for example). These types of climbers go in well knowing there is a large possibility they may meet their end in the mountain, I'd like to start a discussion on what makes these types of climbers different psychologically from regular sports climbers, what motivates/draws people to push the envelope in climbing, and how the risk of this type of climbing can be justified. 

Why are you assuming that only the 'big ticket' climbers have that psychology? Some are more extreme than others, but a great many of us pursue climbing for the same reasons.

Personally, the challenges, rewards and mental skills required of climbing directly translated to getting me through hell in my life outside of climbing. Far different than mounting an expedition up some remote something or other, but no less significant, and, arguably, every bit as difficult. I've met quite a few who have their own battles to fight, and climbing is a big part of that.

For the record? I am quite bold, more so than many, in some ways (it surprises me what people are afraid of), but I also am far more conservative in others. I do what I can to mitigate risk, but after that, I go for it, like starting ice climbing past 60. My rock climbing friends think I'm nuts on that one!

Every single one of us is engaged in an "extreme" sport (lol!!), no matter if some are more extreme than others.

Best, Helen

When it’s just you and the rock it’s truly a magical experience because each motion has to be calculated in a precise manner which really brings the beauty out of the rock and the sport

Andrew Maitski wrote: When it’s just you and the rock it’s truly a magical experience because each motion has to be calculated in a precise manner which really brings the beauty out of the rock and the sport

Yeah man you're totally right that's what draws me to the walls. When you're vertical it truly is like you're in a whole different world were the only thing that matters is that is you holding onto the rock. 

It's not fun if you can't die

Jp Villano wrote: I have been becoming increasingly interested  in the psychology that surrounds why people are willing to risk and put their lives on the line in the pursuit of climbing.

I have been becoming increasingly interested  in the psychology that surrounds why people are willing to risk and put their lives on the line (as well as others) in the pursuit of drinking and driving. 

Personally.

Andrew, JP and Helen just about summed up "the climbing experience".  

Risk is to the beholder...a 5.6-5.7 climber leading a run-out 5.7 experiences the same feelings as the super-alpine climbers 20 pitches up on a pitch just a grade below their max. (especially if the 5.7 is a FA, i.e. final grade unknown, as is usually the case in the latter.)  The absolute risk may be greater for the latter, and the successful result may have more publicity, but I truly think the experience is about the same.

Many of the big decisions of my life were made while resting on a spacious belay ledge far from the "hell in my life outside of climbing" [Helen] and thus while "in a whole different world" [jp]. There is a certain "clarity of mind" that comes with the focus required in climbing.  

Climbers push themselves into risky situations because it physically and mentally feels good---they are adrenaline junkies.The thrill that comes from risk is present in many endeavors--BASE jumping, motor racing, caving, sky diving, big wave surfing.....and climbing, although bolted sport climbs remove most of the risk associated with leading. Advances in technique, physical and mental preparation, as well as gear design, have enabled climbers to attempt virtually any challenge the mountain world can offer. Highly competent, elite climbers are regularly capable of successfully achieving their ambitious goals and experiencing the exhilaration that results. Objective danger, while ever present especially on difficult routes, takes on a greater role in the risk mix when mastery of technique and modern gear tame other aspects of the challenge. Is there any doubt Honnold was mentally and physically capable of climbing Freerider---but what if a hold breaks or a bird explodes out of a crack into his face...objective danger would have changed the outcome. So it is on difficult big peaks and alpine climbs--avalanches, rock fall, weather and other objectives dangers are determinate of the outcome. Accepting risk, overcoming it and experiencing the mental, physiological and emotional rewards that come with success are what motivate risk takers.   

CO Climber wrote: Way to get at it Helen. I hear this quite often and always find it funny when rock climbers think ice climbing is so dangerous. 

Its not that its dangerous... Its too bloody cold!

Read David Roberts's 1980 article "Moments of Doubt" and then listen to his recent pair of Alpinist podcasts titled "Death and Climbing." Interesting perspectives, separated by several decades, on how climbers justify (and yet arguably evade really confronting) risk, grief, and their own mortality

CO Climber wrote: Way to get at it Helen. I hear this quite often and always find it funny when rock climbers think ice climbing is so dangerous. 

I doun´t know any rock climbers (and I know a lot) that think ice climbing is dangerous, cold and pointless is usually the feeling.

I don’t know Jim, I may be new to the game, but this doesn’t seem to be a thread for anyone clipping bolts....
Aren’t they pretty much just glorified top-ropers?

CO Climber wrote: Way to get at it Helen. I hear this quite often and always find it funny when rock climbers think ice climbing is so dangerous. 

Its this dumb thing i have to do to get to the good rock in chamonix. 

Mark Pilate wrote: I don’t know Jim, I may be new to the game, but this doesn’t seem to be a thread for anyone clipping bolts....
Aren’t they pretty much just glorified top-ropers?

If you fall and the rope stops you it's all top-roping.