Should I train legs for climbing?

I’ve taken a break from climbing for the past few months to focus on strength training because I hit a plateau a while back. As a climber, I obviously want a very low body fat percentage because fat is just extra weight you need to haul up the wall. In my research, I found that steady state cardio can kill “gains”. But there’s this type of cardio that I’ve been using for a while now called “High Intensity Interval Training” (HIIT), which is a cycle of short bursts of extreme exertion followed by short rests. I usually do running for HIIT workouts. The problem with HIIT is that it also builds muscle in the legs, which would be good in any other circumstance.  But muscular legs don’t do you much on the wall except for in extenuating circumstances. So, my dilemma is: should I do steady state cardio and risk losing upper body muscle or do HIIT cardio and build unwanted muscle in my legs? Or maybe there’s some third option that I haven’t thought about. Let me know!

Whats this about cardio killing gains? What kind of gains are we talking about here?

This is always an interesting topic, I think there is a fair amount of information out there, but the question is, how does it apply to you?
Being in high school, you are not at the development stage of climbers where excessive weight should be a major concern. You also may not know what type of climbing will really call to you later in life.  If you ever find mountaineering and alpine climbing appealing, a solid base of steady state endurance is important. Obviously if you find bouldering to be your calling, the running won’t help as much.  

I started climbing at 15, and one of my biggest regrets was not climbing enough in those very first years, when natural hormones really could have shaped my finger strength rapidly.  But more than anything, I wasn’t as happy.  Think about what exercising will make you happiest and that you can stick to and do that. 

If you’re in fact 14 years old, focus on being healthy and strong.  Don’t worry about adding leg mass as your body is probably changing daily anyway.  Unless you’re already climbing at a relatively elite level, don’t sweat it.  

I had this exact conversation with my 13 year old who wanted to quit lacrosse for fear of leg mass relative to climbing.  

you should train legs to ride your mtb bike when you're not climbing.  But mostly to distinguish yourself from climbers, with bad cardio

Doug Chism wrote: Whats this about cardio killing gains? What kind of gains are we talking about here?

Weight gains. 

Back in the 90's, all the top sport climbers eschewed any activity that might possibly add mass to their legs.
They'd not only get their acolytes to carry all of their gear, but the really crafty ones would talk someone into carrying them up to the crags.

Jeremy Clark wrote: I’ve taken a break from climbing for the past few months to focus on strength training because I hit a plateau a while back. As a climber, I obviously want a very low body fat percentage because fat is just extra weight you need to haul up the wall. In my research, I found that steady state cardio can kill “gains”. But there’s this type of cardio that I’ve been using for a while now called “High Intensity Interval Training” (HIIT), which is a cycle of short bursts of extreme exertion followed by short rests. I usually do running for HIIT workouts. The problem with HIIT is that it also builds muscle in the legs, which would be good in any other circumstance.  But muscular legs don’t do you much on the wall except for in extenuating circumstances. So, my dilemma is: should I do steady state cardio and risk losing upper body muscle or do HIIT cardio and build unwanted muscle in my legs? Or maybe there’s some third option that I haven’t thought about. Let me know!

Duuuuuuuude, you're too young to have body dysmorphia. Don't start now. 

I’m a teacher and have coached beginner through national elite mountain bike adolescents (and I’m a shitty climber, so caveat emptor). 

You should primarily enjoy these years as you will never even be able to imagine your current levels of testosterone, growth hormone, and your unreal power to weight ratio a few years later. If you are active, there’s nearly nothing you can realistically do to get too heavy for vertical sports. What most teens I coached struggled with was skill, efficiency, and strategy. But put any of them on an hill climb time trial and they were just gone.

So, echoing the others, unless you are climbing at an international level right now (in which case you would have a coach, and not be asking mp punters) have fun, be healthy, make positive habits and good memories around the sport so you can continue to enjoy it for a lifetime.

But to answer your question about cardio/strength: it depends. Some of it has to do with duration and fuel. Some of it has to do with what kind of strength. When I was an elite track cyclist, the sprinters wouldn’t ever spend more than 2km on the bike at a time. They were also squatting 200kg, and their event was 10 seconds of effort. I guess the point is that these sorts of trade offs only apply to really specialized athletes who are approaching absolute limits of human performance. I don’t think it would apply to you, with the caveat that I don’t know you. Pretty much anything you do will likely improve your performance in that area, so long as you’re not overtraining.  

Jeremy Clark wrote: Or maybe there’s some third option that I haven’t thought about. Let me know!

Join your wrestling team next fall. That’s the best thing I did as a teenager, for a lot of reasons.

If your school doesn’t have a wrestling team, transfer.  Or join gymnastics (team?).

If you like slab, or super steep roof climbing, I think strong legs are a must. I regret not training legs when I'm heel hooking my way up a steep route, and when I'm Elvis legging on the top of a slab climb. You'll need strong legs to climb a lot of stuff, not sure everyone else's experience, but I'd say go get it. Not sure if running is the optimal way to train legs for climbing though.

The base of any workout routine should focus on 1) Deadlift, the King of Lifts; 2) Squats and 3) Bench press.

These are foundational lifts, you fill out the rest of your routine with other lifts, but these should be done at least every week.  

I am older, but an example of my routine, which takes me about 1.5 hours is this. Do 10 minutes on bike or row machine to warm up, then do about 15 minutes of other warm up/stretching type exercise like walking lunges, goblet squats, band triceps extension etc.

Each exercise get from 6-10 reps depending on weight (heavy day 6 rep, light 10 rep) and three or four times through, with 30 seconds between sets. So in the next example, do deadlifts, wait 30 seconds, do pull-ups, 30 sec, band twist, 30 sec then start over...do this 3-4 times through then on to next block. It is best to set up each block's equipment before you start the block, so there is minimal interruption.

Deadlift
Pull-ups do 10, cheat if you can't do 10.
Oblique Band twist 60 seconds each side

Flat Bench press
Reverse Lunge w/weights
Plank (up or elbow) 60 sec

Bent Row
Pushups (do at least 15)
Reverse crunch do at least 15

I'll do this on Tuesday. Thursday may be Squats instead of Deadlift, and inclined bench instead of barbell bench etc. Mix it up, keep your muscles guessing. Friday will be more cardio focused with the exercise being timed instead of counted, 20 seconds on, 40 resting, for 30 minutes.

At the end I'll do 5 minutes of Assault Bike, with 15 seconds of full on, followed by 45 seconds of cruise.

I gym climb on Saturday and sometimes Wednesday.

Jon Rhoderick wrote: Being in high school, you are not at the development stage of climbers where excessive weight should be a major concern. You also may not know what type of climbing will really call to you later in life.  If you ever find mountaineering and alpine climbing appealing, a solid base of steady state endurance is important. Obviously if you find bouldering to be your calling, the running won’t help as much.   

So, echoing the others, unless you are climbing at an international level right now (in which case you would have a coach, and not be asking mp punters) have fun, be healthy, make positive habits and good memories around the sport so you can continue to enjoy it for a lifetime. 

These two pieces of advice are very good, considering your apparent age. (Not to say that teens can't struggle with weight issues, but I assume Jon meant muscle weight in this scenario.)

And also, while yes it's true that muscle tissue weighs more per volume than fat tissue does, it is also a very metabolically active tissue, whereas fat not so much. Therefore, muscle in the legs is not necessarily inert, like hauling up gunshot in a sack or something.

I highly recommend avoiding bench press with a bar. If you're doing anything like this, it should be with dumbbells so there's no restriction on your shoulders. It took me several years to recover from damage from my high school lifting, bench pressing with a bar. You get more gains with free weights too because of all the stabilizing muscles that are needed with two independent weights. 

If you climb somewhere with lots of kneebars (like rifle) don't underestimate how helpful training your calves can be. My former project that I just put down had a kneebar rest 2/3 of the way up (albeit a very good kneebar) and the pump in my calf holding the kneebar was the limiting factor in how long I could rest

Ma Ja wrote: I highly recommend avoiding bench press with a bar. If you're doing anything like this, it should be with dumbbells so there's no restriction on your shoulders. It took me several years to recover from damage from my high school lifting, bench pressing with a bar. You get more gains with free weights too because of all the stabilizing muscles that are needed with two independent weights. 

I used to feel the same way, because I don't think we were doing them right...when you bench with a bar, it should be lowered to the bottom of your sternum(xiphoid process) not up near your nipples, and you should keep your elbows in while imagining you are trying to bend the bar in half.

This all keeps the shoulders in proper alignment, or at least is supposed to.

1. Strong legs are important for climbing.
2. Bodybuilder sized mass in your thighs would be a detriment, but you won't get that from HIIT.

 

Doug Chism wrote: Whats this about cardio killing gains? What kind of gains are we talking about here?

Muscle gains

I hear from a lot of people (mostly women) that they won't lift weights for fear of getting jacked. That isn't a real thing. Most people, myself included, will NEVER look like that.

Guys/gals that are really muscular usually have worked years/decades to get that way.  

A guy I used to work out with, but was sadly lost to Crossfit, would cycle Test/Deca/Tren for 12 weeks and gain 10-15 pounds of muscle, but it would disappear as soon as he stopped juicing. And he did everything right.

A normal adult male (not the OP) can gain about 5-8 pounds of muscle a year, if they do everything perfect. So getting huge legs is not something you have to worry about, unless you plan on spending 3 days a week in the gym working on them.

We have all seen that one 55 year old that can climb 5.12. We have all seen that 5’6” dude that weights 180lbs that can climb 5.12. I know one of those 5’6” dudes who can climb 5.12. I can do twice as many pull-ups as him and as far as that old guy... I’m pretty sure I have a better power to weight ratio than him in both my upper body and lower body. Point being that climbing is a sport where skill and technique is king. Like other people have said, unless you’re climbing at an elite level (like you’re one of the best in the country and are going to be sending 5.14 soon) don’t worry about it. Climb and train in a way that makes you happy.

My two cents about the way I train legs (coming from a mediocre climber that just started onsighting 5.11 sport routes outdoors). I train legs twice a week mostly just for maintenance and conditioning. I do enough to stay strong but not fry my central nervous system and take away from my ability to climb or recover from the more important muscle groups used during climbing. Before a big climbing trip or big red points I adjust my training to feel rested and strong for the goal at hand. However, my goal is to be well rounded in life and other outdoor activities. Another takeaway, training is very individualized. It takes years and years to understand your body and know what need to be done and when. So keep climbing and training and pay attention to what your body needs. More importantly, listen to it! It’s an ever changing and forever long road. Often times people think there is a magical program out there that’s going to get them to climb just as strong as the person who created that program... not the case. While programs are a good starting point and a good way to develop a foundation for training, the more advanced and experienced you get you’ll find yourself fine tuning things more toward your own goals.

Taking a break from climbing is definitely not going to make you a better climber, no matter how much weight you lose. You get good st climbing by going climbing.  

Why not do both? If you want to build upper body strength while also burning a lot of calories, look into kettlebells. Some really good programs out there that are great supplements to climbing training.