Simpson Titen HD

Drew Nevius wrote:

You’re placing standard Fixe glue-ins (3/8” or 10mm rod) into a hole that you only drilled out with a 3/8” bit? If I’m reading that correctly, that sounds dangerous. They’re intended for a 1/2” bit

Jim Day Wrote: Hole size is not critical with epoxy- as long as the bolt fits in.  I think Bolt Busters did an episode on different hole sizes with liquidroc 500 with little variation.  If anything, I would think a smaller hole might be better, based off how epoxy works. 

Having said that, a 3/8 hole is actually slightly too small to fit a fixe bolt, but maybe after threading a 3/8 titen in and out it might fit.

Hole size will depend on bolt design.  The twists or Waves for example use a hole about the same size as the physical diameter of the bolt (eg the 12mm Twist uses a 12mm hole)  This is because the cross section of these bolts is not really a cylinder and as such there is enough glue mass as well as mechanical keying to lock them in.  In contrast, SLB designs like the Fixe or Raumer 10mm require a bit of clearance around the outside to ensure enough glue is in there AND there is some glue to mechanically lock the bolt in.  So for a 10mm Raumer SLB, you cannot use a 10mm hole or worse, 3/8in.  Just won't work.  HOWEVER, there are are smaller diameter bolts available that DO work in 10mm or 3/8in holes.  Raumer's 8mm Antrax, Bolt Products 8mm SLB and the Fixe Hely would all work in 10mm or 3/8in holes.  (I double checked and Raumer does state 9.5mm is fine).  

In my experience, the smaller hole / profile is advantageous to reduce drilling and glue use BUT it does take more finagling to get the glue into the back of such a small hole - I usually have to make custom nozzles using Mcdonalds straws taped to the end of a regular mixing nozzle. 

mattm wrote:

Hole size will depend on bolt design.  The twists or Waves for example use a hole about the same size as the physical diameter of the bolt (eg the 12mm Twist uses a 12mm hole)  This is because the cross section of these bolts is not really a cylinder and as such there is enough glue mass as well as mechanical keying to lock them in.  In contrast, SLB designs like the Fixe or Raumer 10mm require a bit of clearance around the outside to ensure enough glue is in there AND there is some glue to mechanically lock the bolt in.  So for a 10mm Raumer SLB, you cannot use a 10mm hole or worse, 3/8in.  Just won't work.  HOWEVER, there are are smaller diameter bolts available that DO work in 10mm or 3/8in holes.  Raumer's 8mm Antrax, Bolt Products 8mm SLB and the Fixe Hely would all work in 10mm or 3/8in holes.  (I double checked and Raumer does state 9.5mm is fine).  

In my experience, the smaller hole / profile is advantageous to reduce drilling and glue use BUT it does take more finagling to get the glue into the back of such a small hole - I usually have to make custom nozzles using Mcdonalds straws taped to the end of a regular mixing nozzle. 

Nice, yeah I've used the Simpson strong-tie EMN22I-RP5 nozzle in 3/8 holes, it's a little tight but you can get it in and fill from the back of the hole 

8- month before/ after video of a 3/8 x 6" 304SS Titen HD in limestone:  youtu.be/3vwndZnnWk8

@Jim Day; Good video.  Thanks for sharing, helps to de-mystify this design.   I’d whip on that for sure! 

Jim Day wrote:

8- month before/ after video of a 3/8 x 6" 304SS Titen HD in limestone:  youtu.be/3vwndZnnWk8

Hats off to you for being conscientious about what you are doing. Worst case those bolts will be very easy to upgrade.

Checking in a few years later to hear if there have been problems with these becoming spinners after a while?

Kevin Kent wrote:

Checking in a few years later to hear if there have been problems with these becoming spinners after a while?

Every 3/8 Titen concrete screw I've removed has taken about the same amount of torque to break free as it took to initially place.  I've never had one become a spinner, although I've had another brand of zinc plated 3/8 x 6 concrete screws become spinners from sideways pulling (while developing an overhang climb).

Over last summer, I installed about 30x 3/8 x 6 zinc Titens with 3/8 fixe plated hangers.  I went back in the winter (4-5 months later) and removed them all and upgraded to 10mm x 160mm SLB glue ins.  Every one of them still was torqued to about what I installed them.  

However, the bolts themselves were rusting at a much faster rate than I thought, especially compared to the hangers which showed no sign of rust.  Here's a video of one I left for 9 months with a SS hanger:

https://youtu.be/qHMJfy-R-Bo 

The sketchiest thing that happens with them is that, if the patch of rock I drill into is too soft, the rock strips out the hole during final tightening.  This has happened to me a couple of times with 3/8 x 4" titens and once with 3/8 x 6" titens, each time I just found a harder patch of rock and replaced the screw.  For this reason I always try to aim for as much torque as I can get with a 6-8" socket wrench (probably around 30 ft lbs) to ensure the engagement with the rock is good.

The area I've used them in is soft limestone. Not many people climb in the area, so a lot of the placements haven't seen hard falls.  Some of the 3/8 x 6" 304ss titens I've placed are over 2 years old now, I'll make a video removing one on a popular (for the area) route I developed 2 years ago that I know has seen traffic and hard falls, stay tuned

They are not an expansion bolt, you don't need to torque them down, that is not their method of engagement with the rock. Don't over tighten or you will damage them or the rock.

Desert Rock Sports wrote:

They are not an expansion bolt, you don't need to torque them down, that is not their method of engagement with the rock. Don't over tighten or you will damage them or the rock.

Max torque for a 3/8 x 6" Titen HD is 50 ft-lbs per the spec.  Exceeding that may damage the bolt.  Damaging the rock from overtorquing should be treated as a sign that the rock wasn't good enough.

Here's a picture of the bolts I removed and replaced after 4-5 months, worst corroded one at the front.  The area is nowhere near salt water or other particularly corrosive conditions 

Edit to answer Nathan's question below since I exceeded my posts for today:

That's correct, I knew I'd replace them in the winter. Besides the ~ 30 Stainless concrete screws I have at a particular section of wall I plan to leave and continue to monitor over the next few years, I'm not placing any concrete screws (stainless or zinc) except for temporary use.

@Jim Day did you use the zinc plated knowing you'd be back to replace them? And will you be going with all SS Titens going forward after seeing how fast they start to rust?

I appreciate you Jim! I've had good results with the Titan HD as well. 

Not exactly related to the "Simpson Titen" topic, but has anyone tried Hilti's Kwik-X dual action system?

Derek Woods wrote:

Not exactly related to the "Simpson Titen" topic, but has anyone tried Hilti's Kwik-X dual action system?

I was very interested, but I can't find an online source for the capsules.  If you know of a way to get some, please share!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the Titan HDs still haven't been subjected, in number, to consistent climbing use (repeated falls, multi-directional loading, placement by different individuals in same/different rock types) to be considered as a standard fixed anchor option. What are you all currently using these for? 

Andy Bennett wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the Titan HDs still haven't been subjected, in number, to consistent climbing use (repeated falls, multi-directional loading, placement by different individuals in same/different rock types) to be considered as a standard fixed anchor option. What are you all currently using these for? 

one reason is temp / exploratory anchors. Reverse 'er out, patch / fill when done, or drill out to 1/2" and insert bolt of your choosing if it ends up being a good place after all.

Andy Bennett wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the Titan HDs still haven't been subjected, in number, to consistent climbing use (repeated falls, multi-directional loading, placement by different individuals in same/different rock types) to be considered as a standard fixed anchor option. What are you all currently using these for? 

I use them as "permanent" anchors and as protection bolts on granite slabs. Perhaps close to 200 over the past 6-7 years. I've also placed a few on overhanging granite and found that installing with a wrench in that case was also fine. I don't know if any have had many repeated falls, though certainly some have been fallen on.  

Jim Day wrote:

I was very interested, but I can't find an online source for the capsules.  If you know of a way to get some, please share!

Can I assume the benefits with these is that it makes the whole process more portable, requires less (or at least smaller) tools and is generally easier to carry to the crag and on route?