Simpson Titen HD

Greg Barnes wrote:“5-piece are incredibly versatile and not sensitive to installation, “

I would also take issue with this. 5pc are very sensitive to undersized holes caused by worn bits. Additionally, the holes need to be nearly as dust free as adhesive anchors or the end cone can foul and result in an immediate spinner. Torque on the 3/8” ss model is finicky too and rarely achieved properly without a torque wrench. The multi component assembly is a nightmare on lead jangling around in bolt bag.

Concrete screws, not suprisingly I´ve looked into them a bit. And tested some as well.
They originally came from a German company (HECO) who are still the specialists for them (they even make them in HCR stainless). The Australian first investigated them for climbing as a replacement for the infamous Carrot bolts but found in their sandstone the results weren´t what they were looking for (they loosen up), Miki Law knows all about them. The DAV in germany also tested them which is where I got involved, the numbers were ok in some types of rock but in others they were virtually impossible to install and the threads stripped off which you don´t know unless you remove the bolt for inspection. The big drawback of the stainless versions (the threads galling and ripping off) was cured by adding a steel tip BUT this then put them out of the European standard for climbing anchors as it specifies the whole anchor must be of the same material. They then also don´t conform to UIAA and so are of no interest commercially as climbing equipment in Europe. It didn´t particularly help that at that time the European Technical Approval was only for use as temporary fastenings for scaffolding etc.
Without an impact driver they can be impossible to install in the recommended hole in hard rock which lead to people posting on the internet (including on MP) that they were drilling the holes oversize to be able to install them at which point everyones interest dissapeared. There is more than just the pull-out numbers one has to consider before introducing products to the general market!

While it's interesting to hear the early development of similar products, it sounds like the design has evolved. The Simpson product is rated for use in concrete up to 8500 psi.

evaluation report

In my (and others) experience, these work very well in hard rock without an oversize hole. These have been used in Index and Darrington Granite, here is a link to an old State Geological publication that identifies Index material in the realm of 10000 psi, which is higher than the samples I've seen and likely higher than Darrington rock, being slightly more compact. Perhaps a change in test methods? Regardless, the good granite here is hard.

Index Granite properties

Many previous manufacturers used a brazed on steel tip, which was a corrosion issue to be sure. These have a single helical thread brazed to the stainless. The actual ratio of SS to carbon steel is tiny:

Bimetal corrosion

I'm confused as to why anyone would think a small impact gun is a stumbling block when we consider that installing glue ins strongly resembles a construction site and sequencing. Blowers, brushes, trash bags, rags, bosun chairs, long big bits,extra batteries, cooler for glue, hand warmers for glue, caulking gun, glue cartridges, etc.

Rather than introducing these to the general market, I have taken a measured approach that includes several years of use in very obscure areas, lots of shop testing, lots of field testing (and more coming), and growing knowledge and confidence in them. My aim is to open this up for discussion and really to begin the process of introducing improved mechanical anchor techniques beyond the wedge anchor, PowerBolt 5 pc, and glue ins that are going in at a high rate of speed. The only way we can have this discussion is by sharing experience, test data, and having an open mind.

I fully agree that pull out numbers are but one piece of the puzzle. In each thread where this has come up, I propose a list of features and characteristics we would find desirable. So far I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on that list. So here it is once again:

A valid replacement would have the following merits:

1) Removability
2) Ease of Inspection
3) Low Cost
4) 316 or better material
5) High strength to diameter of hole needed
6) One piece construction
7) Full diameter shank at the shear plane
8) Easy Installation
9) Works in most if not all rock types
10) Vibration and cyclic load resistant

Greg and Jim-

Please PM your addresses and I'll mail you 10 each at no cost to play with, scrutinize, assess, test, and report back with your findings.

Cheers and Beers!

MH

Jim, do you know of any research that has been done in chemical hardening of soft stones? I have done a fair amount of very low viscosity injection epoxies (think light machine oil) that are used in concrete repair and would probably be thin enough to penetrate a sandstone matrix....

Just an aside of interest.

Mh 

Sending some to me would be a major hassle since I´m in Germany, the last time I got a couple of 1/2" drill bits sent over it took me all morning to get them out of customs including driving there and back and paying a couple of € tax! A real pissoff since the f#cking things were Boch and made in Germany in the first place!!!
I just wasted half an hour searching for them here, Simpson products are widely available but the concrete screws aren´t. Guess I´m a bit slow as it´s Sunday morning because then I realised that´s because they are Imperial dimensioned so we wouldn´t have the drill bits or tools to screw them in. I´ve an adress in the US you could send them to (my importer) as he can carry them over when he visits end of the month and bring a drill bit as well.
The common ones here are the Heco Multi Monti which have a hard-steel toothed tip, the Fischer one which just says the end is specially hardened and the Schäfer ones which have tungsten carbide lumps brazed on to make cutting teeth, I´ll get hold of some to try them. The Schäfer ones look cool but the price doesn´t! The Fischer is the only one certified to be backed out a bit (20mm) and re-fitted to install stuff underneath, the others re-using the hole isn´t permitted.
The stone restoration guys have done loads of work on epoxy hardening rock, there´s a long pdf from the Getty Foundation about it somehwere I read once. From memory the problem is it takes ages (hours or days) to get penetration and the epoxy has to be thinned with like 90% acetone, doesn´t sound like something I´d want to do on a cliff. I´m just making some bolts for a soft sandstone area in the UK and I know they have tried various thing to preserve the holds, I´ll ask them what they know.
P.S the Getty paper is here; getty.edu/conservation/publ…

Thanks Jim, great info!

MH

I made a video about these bolts: youtu.be/DLcU9soeZic

Hello,

A question for you experts!

If I use 3/8 titan HDs for temp anchors, can I remove them, redrill and replace them with 1/2" wedge expansion boots?

In other words does anyone have the total diameter of the 3/8" titan HDs including the cutting threads, hopefully theyll be less than 1/2".

Thanks

Fishy- 

Yes, with the threads, the total diameter is less than 1/2". They easily fit through the 1/2" hole on bolt hangers. 

Jon,

Thank you!

That makes it easier for me to use the Titens as exploratory bolts and use the holes for wedge bolts after.

Much appreciated!

Both stainless and zinc measure just under 1/2", about 15/32".  The Zinc may be a hair smaller than the stainless

Fishy Boi wrote:

That makes it easier for me to use the Titens as exploratory bolts and use the holes for wedge bolts after.

Much appreciated!

This is the ticket for sure. You can even stay clipped in while removing! Theyre great.

Thank you all for posting measurements.

The other thing I am considering is using 1/4 titen HDs then drilling them out for 3/8 or 10mm wedge bolts after, but not quite sure if that would work.

Fishy Boi wrote:

Thank you all for posting measurements.

The other thing I am considering is using 1/4 titen HDs then drilling them out for 3/8 or 10mm wedge bolts after, but not quite sure if that would work.

I use the 1/4" Titens in PS for temp anchors all the time.  I throw a washer on the head as well with a 10mm hanger as the head of the 1/4" is a wee bit small for my tastes.  Can remove and re-drill hole if needed (I usually am using a glue in so I haven't bothered to measure if this would work with 3/8" wedge etc).  

mattm wrote:

I use the 1/4" Titens in PS for temp anchors all the time.  I throw a washer on the head as well with a 10mm hanger as the head of the 1/4" is a wee bit small for my tastes.  Can remove and re-drill hole if needed (I usually am using a glue in so I haven't bothered to measure if this would work with 3/8" wedge etc).  

3/8 Titen bolts are compatible with 10mm raumer hangers, they just thread on.  It's easy with the stainless titens, a little more finiky with the serrations on zinc plated titens but still pretty simple.  That way you won't have to use a 1/4 titen with a washer.  Also, your hole is already the right size for a Fixe 3/8 glue in, just notch, brush and blow.  Or glue in a 3/8 or 10mm threaded rod and re-use your hanger

Fishy Boi wrote:

Thank you all for posting measurements.

The other thing I am considering is using 1/4 titen HDs then drilling them out for 3/8 or 10mm wedge bolts after, but not quite sure if that would work.

I've never bought 1/4 titens to physically measure, but I'm pretty sure this would work fine. 

For 3/8 (0.375") titens, the major diameter is about 0.47 - 0.49".  So the threads add about .115 inches conservatively.

Assuming the threads aren't larger on a 1/4 titen (why would they be?), You would have 0.25 + 0.115 = 0.365", which is less than a 3/8" hole.

Jim Day wrote:

3/8 Titen bolts are compatible with 10mm raumer hangers, they just thread on.  It's easy with the stainless titens, a little more finiky with the serrations on zinc plated titens but still pretty simple.  That way you won't have to use a 1/4 titen with a washer.  Also, your hole is already the right size for a Fixe 3/8 glue in, just notch, brush and blow.  Or glue in a 3/8 or 10mm threaded rod and re-use your hanger

You’re placing standard Fixe glue-ins (3/8” or 10mm rod) into a hole that you only drilled out with a 3/8” bit? If I’m reading that correctly, that sounds dangerous. They’re intended for a 1/2” bit

Drew Nevius wrote:

You’re placing standard Fixe glue-ins (3/8” or 10mm rod) into a hole that you only drilled out with a 3/8” bit? If I’m reading that correctly, that sounds dangerous. They’re intended for a 1/2” bit

Hole size is not critical with epoxy- as long as the bolt fits in.  I think Bolt Busters did an episode on different hole sizes with liquidroc 500 with little variation.  If anything, I would think a smaller hole might be better, based off how epoxy works. 

Having said that, a 3/8 hole is actually slightly too small to fit a fixe bolt, but maybe after threading a 3/8 titen in and out it might fit.

I have typically used a 12mm or 1/2" (12.7mm) for fixe glue ins, but I have (on one occasion) removed a 3/8 titen and reused the hole with a fixe glue in after brushing and blowing (without upsizing the hole). This was in soft limestone.

Believe it or not Fixe has made more than one diameter of bolt. The Fixe Hely bolt works great in a 3/8" or 10mm hole. I believe they are no longer making them but they are definitely still out there. 

Edited to add: The Hely is one of the bolts tested in the HN2 vid mentioned in the post above. 

Thank you all!

Would you need an impact drill to install the 1/4 or 3/8 in granite or other such harder stone, or is a good socket wrench enough?