BD ATC Alpine Guide....anyone have it yet?

So has anyone gotten a chance to try it out on some skinny half/twin ropes?  I've got 7.8s and using a reverso is quite fun with the amount of slippage you get when catching a fall.  I tend to wear gloves when using these ropes atm.  Would def buy it if the friction was better on the Alpine Guide but would love to actually find some reviews on it first.

I did some searching and i havent found any review on it yet. Im not even sure if it is fully available yet.

Thomas, the BD ATC Alpine Guide looks to be fully available. Saw it at the last three REIs I was in and the usual online shops along with the new ATC guide (non-alpine). Was surprised to see those only rated down to 8.1mm unlike the original/older model that's on sale everywhere now. I actually picked up the older regular guide model yesterday for my wife on sale since those were still rated down to 7.7mm. Out of curiosity anyone try catching a fall on the older model with 7.8mm double/twins? How'd it go?

Drew L wrote: Thomas, the BD ATC Alpine Guide looks to be fully available. Saw it at the last three REIs I was in and the usual online shops along with the new ATC guide (non-alpine). Was surprised to see those only rated down to 8.1mm unlike the original/older model that's on sale everywhere now. I actually picked up the older regular guide model yesterday for my wife on sale since those were still rated down to 7.7mm. Out of curiosity anyone try catching a fall on the older model with 7.8mm double/twins? How'd it go?

It's rated down to 6.9mm and up to 9mm but designed to be optimally used on 8.1mm 8.5mm according to all the descriptions I've seen.

I have one and it is very nice on sub 9mm ropes.  In particular I have used it with mammut serenity 8.7mm rope used as a single and rappel double stranded.

I'm much happier than with the regular atc guide.  

I ordered mine from REI.

Using it on my Mammut Phoenix 8.0 and Sterling Duettos 8.4.
Very good for belaying and especially rappelling, probably will eliminate the rope pinch I've had with the regular ATC Guide and Reverso.

Luc-514 wrote: Using it on my Mammut Phoenix 8.0 and Sterling Duettos 8.4.
Very good for belaying and especially rappelling, probably will eliminate the rope pinch I've had with the regular ATC Guide and Reverso.

Have you used the same 8.0mm ropes on the reverso before?  If so how much better is the friction?  Is it anywhere close to the kind of friction you get on say a single 9.8mm with a regular reverso?

I can't compare with a 9.8 since I only have a 9 and 9.2.
But yes, the 8mm in the Reverso was also a problem, as much as with the ATC Guide.

I'm curious how the friction is when belaying the second(s) up in guide mode. I noticed the atc guide to be much better than the reverso in this regard, but i'm curious about the atc alpine guide?

As you’re having this discussion keep in mind that there is no test standard for manual belay devices that measures their effectiveness while belaying. While I’m sure that most of the companies have conducted their own tests for belaying, stopping a fall and rappelling, each company gets to make up its own test and report (or not report) the results as they see fir.

The CE standard for manual devices is merely a strength standard: they just pull the device apart and see if they can break it.

The UIAA standard for manual devices is similar. The UIAA test for Locking Assisted Devices, on the other hand, is quite stringent and, of the popular devices, only the Grigri, Vergo, Revo, Matik and Eddy have this certification. Here’s the Spec: UIAA Braking Device Standard

Similarly, there is no standard for testing or reporting the recommended rope diameters for manual belay devices. While I’m sure the reputable companies have a pretty thorough testing methodology, I’m equally sure that there are companies who get their results from their marketing department. The important thing to remember here is that there is not necessarily any continuity between brands. What KP thinks is an acceptable range of rope diameters may not agree with what Peter Popall thinks is acceptable.

To throw another wrench in the works here, the CE and UIAA both allow +/- .2mm variation in reporting rope diameter! That 9.2mm rope you’re thinking about might actually be a 9.6mm rope!

So what are the lessons here?

1. Do your own testing on any belay device you may be considering. Do it with a backup. Do it with the rope and carabiner combo you’re most likely to use.
2. When you buy that new 8.7 single rope, don’t assume it will catch a fall and rappel the same way that your old 9.8mm rope will.
3. Consider buying a “braking assist” device like a Megajul, Pilot or Smart 2. While these require a bit more attention that your old Reverso or ATC do, they do a better job of stopping a fall and rappelling. They seem to be a bit more consistent in how they report the accepted rope diameters.
4. Remember that a manual belay device, including the above listed “braking assisted” devices will not catch a F2 fall!!!
5. Don’t be too geekey over the recommended rope diameters listed on manual belay devices. Do your own testing with a backup.
6. There is no test standard for guide mode belaying. Do your own testing with a backup.

I think that Jim Titt may have conducted some of his own tests on manual belay devices. Jim...you there? Am I full of shit?
Climb safe,
Mal

Thanks for the insight Malcom. Can you clarify two points?
1.The CE and UIAA both allow +/- .2mm variation in reporting rope diameter! That 9.2mm rope you’re thinking about might actually be a 9.6mm rope!
            I'm no scientist, but wouldn't +/- .2mm on a rope claimed to be 9.2mm mean it could actually be anywhere from 9.0mm to 9.4mm?

2. Remember that a manual belay device, including the above listed “braking assisted” devices will not catch a F2 fall!!!
            Can you explain? In particular, what is the failure point - friction, the device's overall strength, something else?

Thanks!

Matt Castelli wrote: Thanks for the insight Malcom. Can you clarify two points?
1.The CE and UIAA both allow +/- .2mm variation in reporting rope diameter! That 9.2mm rope you’re thinking about might actually be a 9.6mm rope!
            I'm no scientist, but wouldn't +/- .2mm on a rope claimed to be 9.2mm mean it could actually be anywhere from 9.0mm to 9.4mm?

2. Remember that a manual belay device, including the above listed “braking assisted” devices will not catch a F2 fall!!!
            Can you explain? In particular, what is the failure point - friction, the device's overall strength, something else?

Thanks!

I am indeed here, just finished my days work and opened a beer!

The rope diameter thing is somewhat vague (many of the standards are subject to interpretation) and it is so that if I measure my rope as a manufacturer at 9.4mm I can take the reporting variation and claim it is 9.2mm but it can also be a 9.6mm since I´m allowed +-2mm variation.
To catch a FF2 fall with a conventional device the belayer has to change their braking hand from below the device to above, with an "assisted braking device" (technically and according to the standards this doesn´t actually exist) you also have to do this, with your MegaJul or whatever if you keep your braking hand down it won´t lock and provides no braking whatsoever. This is the fundamental difference between all the "braking assist" devices and the true "manual assisted locking devices" (as they are called in the standard) which will lock in any orientation without any change in the belayers hand positions. The test for these is no belayer whatsoever and a FF2 drop, for all the other categories no test is made of their function.

Just wanted to give an update on this thread.  I finally bought the alpine guide and I couldn't be happier already.  Just with testing at home with no climber I'm holding the ropes in the brake position and tugging on the climber side and the difference is very noticeable compared to my Reverso 4.  I might head out to the gym tonight and test it a bit more if I can find a guinea pig there. 

Christopher Smith wrote: Just wanted to give an update on this thread.  I finally bought the alpine guide and I couldn't be happier already.  Just with testing at home with no climber I'm holding the ropes in the brake position and tugging on the climber side and the difference is very noticeable compared to my Reverso 4.  I might head out to the gym tonight and test it a bit more if I can find a guinea pig there. 

Hi, how's the Alpine doing for you? 

For braking power on thin ropes, the Alpine guide beats all the others I have tried.

8mm half ropes and a somewhat decent fall, made all the assisted belay devices I tried (megajul, gigajul, smart alpine,), as well as the standard atc types quite useless. The Alpine guide was the only one that actually caught it.

If you climb on thin ropes, buy it !

Been using it regularly on my 8.5 mm doubles. Really liking it for lead baley and belay from above in guide mode as a threesome.

Yesterday, we used two strands of 8.9mm rope with the BD ATC-Alpine Guide in guide mode.  It was a unique situation when we needed a third light rope.

I don't recommend that two-stranded 8.9mm combination: too much friction making care and feeding tiresome.

8.9mm is up against the max suggested size anyway, well above the optimized range (8.1 to 8.5) that is advertised.

Bill Lawry wrote: Yesterday, we used two strands of 8.9mm rope with the BD ATC-Alpine Guide in guide mode.  It was a unique situation when we needed a third light rope.

I don't recommend that combination: too much friction making care and feeding tiresome. (...)

I have a 9,2 single rope I sometimes belay with the alpine guide, It is indeed a bit to much friction at that sice. But it works for short periods.
I have found it vital to use a "smooth" carabiner though.. with the wrong kind of carabiner it is not really possible to use for a rope around 9mm.

Good point.  I was using the OP Jake Screw-Lok: might have had a role in some of the excess friction.

Niccolo Gallio wrote:

Hi, how's the Alpine doing for you? 

Awesome.  I used it a fair amount doing long windy multipitch this summer in Colorado (everything from Flatirons to higher altitude granite stuff).  Worked GREAT with my 7.8s in both twin and half mode.  Never really caught any falls to be fair but I did do some testing at the gym after I got it and it was very noticeably easier to catch falls.  Used it alot in guide mode as well and it feeds no problem with that size rope and a Petzl Attache (3d not roundstock).

Christopher Smith wrote:

Awesome.  I used it a fair amount doing long windy multipitch this summer in Colorado (everything from Flatirons to higher altitude granite stuff).  Worked GREAT with my 7.8s in both twin and half mode.  Never really caught any falls to be fair but I did do some testing at the gym after I got it and it was very noticeably easier to catch falls.  Used it alot in guide mode as well and it feeds no problem with that size rope and a Petzl Attache (3d not roundstock).

thanks! 

My ropes are 8.6 so not sure if it would work very smoothly for me.
Anyway I got a Reverso as a present from a friend so I guess I'll stick with that for a while