Camp Swing

MisterE Wolfe wrote: Clove hitch. Save your $49.95.

Dynamic? Adjustible? Free!

Literally the rest of the thread is talking about a positioning system for ground up new routing.

Anonymous wrote:

Don't worry! I picked one up for belaying you from trad anchors.

Schweet!

In terms of aid climbing, there is a difference in how close you can get to  the piece you're clipped into with the Petzl getting you what looks like 1"- 2" closer.
Not too important of an issue since I know less and less monkeys using their adjustable daisies to get in tight to a piece when the Allfifi does a better job of this.

Basically for aid climbing, the Allfifi has effectively made the adjustable daisy irrelevant except for jugging, moving around the belay, and keeping your ladders from falling (all situations where a simple [and lighter] dyneema daisy chain just makes more sense)

That said, I'll be getting two and seeing how they work at releasing under load because, you know, #forscience.

So that leaves us with it's only good for route development? CAMP may have misjudged the demo for this unless their ultimate demo is trustafarians that like shiny things that allow them to keep repeating the phrase "but it's DYNAMIC!" over and over and over again when arguing at the campfire.

Well I just got two today.

At first glance they are significantly shorter than the Petzl Evolv Adjust. Checking the specs, the Petzl adjusts from 15cm -150cm whereas the Camp adjusts from 20cm - 100cm.... so that's why. (see picture)

I'll have to put it on my harness alongside my Petzl and have a go at it this weekend and will report back, but based upon what I'm seeing here, it may not be effective for aid climbing in any way unless you're short (which I am). It also doesn't feel very smooth at all when adjusting the length, but that's at my work desk and not with it attached to my harness which admittedly changes the geometry of things. 

It does look like they will be able to release under load... but we'll see irl

Anonymous wrote:

YGD

No one cares if I live or die. 

kevin deweese wrote:

No one cares if I live or die. 

i like reading your stuff. don't die

kevin deweese wrote:

No one cares if I live or die. 

HEY. 

I cares <3.

Well this thread drift went well for me.

kevin deweese wrote: Well I just got two today.

At first glance they are significantly shorter than the Petzl Evolv Adjust. Checking the specs, the Petzl adjusts from 15cm -150cm whereas the Camp adjusts from 20cm - 100cm.... so that's why. (see picture)

I'll have to put it on my harness alongside my Petzl and have a go at it this weekend and will report back, but based upon what I'm seeing here, it may not be effective for aid climbing in any way unless you're short (which I am). It also doesn't feel very smooth at all when adjusting the length, but that's at my work desk and not with it attached to my harness which admittedly changes the geometry of things.

It does look like they will be able to release under load... but we'll see irl

I've got one and have used it a couple of times.  It will release under load but it's not as easy and smooth as in demonstrations. At least not for me yet anyways

It releases okay, but doesn’t take up slack as smooth as the Adjust.  I contacted Camp about the break strength

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:
Just like a Petzl Connect Adjust. Incredibly useful for aid or jugging but useless for use as a PAS on a free climb (too bulky).

If you thought this was a good idea for doing a route with bolted anchors so you wouldn't tie in with the rope you need to learn to climb.

This isn’t actually true. Some of the most experienced people I climb with use these types of products as tethers on hard multipitch routes where we’re using the ‘no-belay’ seconding method.  In that application it’s really nice and smart to have the belayer clipped in with something that’s dynamic as opposed to just a sling. (For folks unfamiliar with the system, the rope’s not available)

Regarding this specific product, I used it for a couple of routes on the Hulk and in RMNP this summer.  It’s definitley too stiff out of the box (not smooth to adjust) and the bartacked ends are also really stiff and cause it to annoyingly stick out from your harness while you’re climbing. I just replaced the stock rope with a length of thinner rope and am optimistic that it’ll work a lot better, but haven’t had the chance to use it yet.

Edit to add months later: it’s great with a skinnier rope. I chopped a piece of an old Edelrid 8.9 and it’s perfect. It’s also nice because this way I can tie into the sling as opposed to girth hitching which creates way less bulk at your harness. 

kevin deweese wrote: Well I just got two today.

At first glance they are significantly shorter than the Petzl Evolv Adjust. Checking the specs, the Petzl adjusts from 15cm -150cm whereas the Camp adjusts from 20cm - 100cm.... so that's why. (see picture)

I'll have to put it on my harness alongside my Petzl and have a go at it this weekend and will report back, but based upon what I'm seeing here, it may not be effective for aid climbing in any way unless you're short (which I am). It also doesn't feel very smooth at all when adjusting the length, but that's at my work desk and not with it attached to my harness which admittedly changes the geometry of things.

It does look like they will be able to release under load... but we'll see irl

kevin , so how do you like Camp Swing? Can't choose between these two :)

Max Tepfer wrote:This isn’t actually true. Some of the most experienced people I climb with use these types of products as tethers on hard multipitch routes where we’re using the ‘no-belay’ seconding method.  In that application it’s really nice and smart to have the belayer clipped in with something that’s dynamic as opposed to just a sling. (For folks unfamiliar with the system, the rope’s not available)

I think you totally made that up, but I'll bite. What is this method about?

Emilis Šimkus wrote:

kevin so how do you like Camp Swing? Can't choose between these two :)

Dunno about it for aid climbing, for my use I strongly prefer the Petzl to the CAMP.  The Swing releases nicely, but it's too stiff taking in slack.  Enough that doing it while pumped at the end of a pitch really sucks.  

It's also a bit on the short side.  I can comfortably clove a carabiner into the middle of the Petzl for an extended rappel and still have working room at the anchor.  Not quite enough room with the CAMP.

Fran M wrote:

I think you totally made that up, but I'll bite. What is this method about?

You second the pitch via microtraxions/rope soloing and the end of the rope stays below you dangling down the pitch for essentially the whole climb. Due to that, the second needs an independent tether to clip in with. These are better than dyneema slings for this because they’re way more dynamic in the event of a factor two.  There are a handful of articles out there outlining this method. (I think one in Climbing and another on a blog)

Max Tepfer wrote:

You second the pitch via microtraxions/rope soloing and the end of the rope stays below you dangling down the pitch for essentially the whole climb. Due to that, the second needs an independent tether to clip in with. 

Sounds like you are describing short-fixing. But the end of the rope is not dangling, the second is tied into it.

These are better than dyneema slings for this because they’re way more dynamic in the event of a factor two.  There are a handful of articles out there outlining this method. (I think one in Climbing and another on a blog)

FF2ing on a tether is not a good idea, even if its made of dynamic rope. Impact force is reduced compared to a sling (which might break) but still around 10KN...

Emilis Šimkus wrote: 

kevin , so how do you like Camp Swing? Can't choose between these two :)

I love my swing now that I have modified it DIY. I use it only for aid climbing and purchased two Swings to setup similar to the Petzl dual adjust. Initially I replaced the rope it comes with (9.6mm I believe which is ridiculously hard to pull through the device) with an 8mm rope but that was too thin of a diameter as it would slowly slip under a load greater than 150lbs and also had a habit of crossing over itself making the device unusable. I then replaced it with a 9.2 rope and it works well. 9.2 is still a bit too big (but still very usable) and I would think that a rope 8.6-9.0 would be the perfect range for replacing the rope. 

All in all, (once the rope has been replaced by the user), it works exactly the same as the Petzl but has the added benefit of being easily releasable under load.

If you're not willing to modify the device then the Swing is basically an impractical pain while the Petzl (which slides well out of the box but does begin to get harder to slide after a lot of use) would be the way to go. For aid climbing, the Swing is unusable as a tether unless modified because its rope is too short out of the box

pat a wrote:
Dunno about it for aid climbing, for my use I strongly prefer the Petzl to the CAMP.  The Swing releases nicely, but it's too stiff taking in slack.  Enough that doing it while pumped at the end of a pitch really sucks.  
It's also a bit on the short side.  I can comfortably clove a carabiner into the middle of the Petzl for an extended rappel and still have working room at the anchor.  Not quite enough room with the CAMP.

The Swing requires that you replace the rope that it comes with to a smaller diameter to be practical when using it over the course of a long day/climb. This also solves the issue with how short it is compared to the petzl.

kevin deweese wrote:

I love my swing now that I have modified it DIY. 

Did you play with Kong Slyde?

Fran M wrote: Sounds like you are describing short-fixing. But the end of the rope is not dangling, the second is tied into it.

FF2ing on a tether is not a good idea, even if its made of dynamic rope. Impact force is reduced compared to a sling (which might break) but still around 10KN...

I'm familiar with the difference between short fixing and this.  I promise that it's different.  When short fixing, the leader is self-belaying or is climbing on a PDL.  With this technique the leader leads and is belayed on each pitch as normal.  The primary difference is that he or she doesn't ever pull up rope after arriving at the belay.  Did some googling for you and found one of the articles: https://www.climbing.com/skills/advanced-techniques-follow-on-toprope-solo/

For sure that factor two-ing on the anchor isn't a good idea, but you're better off doing it onto a piece of climbing rope than you are a sewn dyneema sling.  One of the advantages of these tools.

Max Tepfer wrote:

I'm familiar with the difference between short fixing and this.  I promise that it's different.  When short fixing, the leader is self-belaying or is climbing on a PDL.  With this technique the leader leads and is belayed on each pitch as normal.  The primary difference is that he or she doesn't ever pull up rope after arriving at the belay.  Did some googling for you and found one of the articles: https://www.climbing.com/skills/advanced-techniques-follow-on-toprope-solo/

Thank you for your googling. "no belay seconding" results were nowhere close to "follow on toprope solo"...  in which the end is left dangling to avoid pulling up rope... to each their own.

For sure that factor two-ing on the anchor isn't a good idea, but you're better off doing it onto a piece of climbing rope than you are a sewn dyneema sling.  One of the advantages of these tools.

Still, that is not a good reason to choose a tether of dynamic rope over nylon, dynema, etc. Pro will most certainly rip anyway; you will get hurt anyway. I think it has more to do with handling, adjusting length, abrasion resistance / durability...