INTRO TO GUIDING 101 FOR DUMMIES(me)

Hey there,
I've been guiding rock for about 2 years. My experience might be a little different and may / may not be helpful to you.

I started out in Phoenix with ZERO experience. At the time I had been rock climbing (only sport) for about a year and I hired a guide to help me teach a large group of my friends in a beginner course (I was only so comfortable teaching a group of college students with limited attention spans how to tie in and climb and not die). A few months later I thought to myself "Man, that guy's job seemed really fun, I wonder what that guiding thing is all about" so I asked him out for coffee and we talked about climbing and guiding for about an hour.

He could tell I was stoked. He offered me one of those magical internships you mentioned in your first post. I learned more in that year of an internship than I could have ever possibly asked for. I guided a lot of trips, and they did not pay me much. But after that year I was eventually ready to take my SPI (which they paid for) and I was unbelievably prepared.

Then I got a raise, made enough to get by, and then moved to Salt Lake. I decided that after 1.5 years of guiding, I couldn't see myself doing it full time and putting my body under so much stress. So now I have a desk job 40 hours / week, and I am starting to guide part-time on top of that. Which for me is a great balance. I have an SPI through PCGI and neither company I've worked for has required AMGA. But I really don't want to open that can of worms, so that's all I'll say on that subject.

Best of luck to you!! Give it a shot if its something you really care about, and the rest will fall into place!

Meech wrote: Hey there,
I've been guiding rock for about 2 years. My experience might be a little different and may / may not be helpful to you.

I started out in Phoenix with ZERO experience. At the time I had been rock climbing (only sport) for about a year and I hired a guide to help me teach a large group of my friends in a beginner course (I was only so comfortable teaching a group of college students with limited attention spans how to tie in and climb and not die). A few months later I thought to myself "Man, that guy's job seemed really fun, I wonder what that guiding thing is all about" so I asked him out for coffee and we talked about climbing and guiding for about an hour.

He could tell I was stoked. He offered me one of those magical internships you mentioned in your first post. I learned more in that year of an internship than I could have ever possibly asked for. I guided a lot of trips, and they did not pay me much. But after that year I was eventually ready to take my SPI (which they paid for) and I was unbelievably prepared.

Then I got a raise, made enough to get by, and then moved to Salt Lake. I decided that after 1.5 years of guiding, I couldn't see myself doing it full time and putting my body under so much stress. So now I have a desk job 40 hours / week, and I am starting to guide part-time on top of that. Which for me is a great balance. I have an SPI through PCGI and neither company I've worked for has required AMGA. But I really don't want to open that can of worms, so that's all I'll say on that subject.

Best of luck to you!! Give it a shot if its something you really care about, and the rest will fall into place!

Thanks!! Ill be on the look out for these magical internships I know they're out there even if its like looking for bigfoot I KNOW THEY'RE REAL lol

eli poss wrote:

He may be guiding outside the scope of practice, I don't know enough to say, but who get's to decide what somebody's scope of practice is? Certs cost money and not everybody can afford to shell out the cash. I know people who lack the high level certs but are much more qualified than some of the mountain guides I've seen. I'll take the guy without the cert who has first ascents in the Bugaboos or the Himalayas.

Most of the full guides I know have FA's in Canada and Asia (including me). That argument is old and generally inaccurate.  

And the company you work for decides to adopt a scope or not.  Carl's company tries to maintain the amga sop whenever possible.

Tico wrote:

Most of the full guides I know have FA's in Canada and Asia (including me). That argument is old and generally inaccurate.  

And the company you work for decides to adopt a scope or not.  Carl's company tries to maintain the amga sop whenever possible.

First ascents require research and the skill to climb the route. It's awesome when somebody does a first ascent...but it's a climbing accomplishment and not a guiding accomplishment.

I hear this a lot. "I know X number of guides who have more skill in their little pinky than that AMGA guide."

But the question is, what are you evaluating? The likely answer is that you're making an evaluation based on the person's skill as a recreational climber...and maybe the person's personality. But without a deep understanding of technical guide skills, it's unlikely that an individual can actually make that judgement. It's similar to saying that an individual is good at computer programming because he helped you solve a problem with your Iphone.

The AMGA's primary focus is the education of climbing instructors and guides. The focus of that education is guide and instructor skill. Yes, someone may have some natural talent, but that doesn't mean that they don't need education to refine that talent. Perhaps the better metaphor for what the AMGA does is akin to what a university does for teacher education. Every teacher has some innate teaching skills, but a university teaches that teacher how to write lesson plans, manage a classroom, build a curriculum, etc. In most states, we don't allow untrained teachers into public school classrooms.

I didn't come to these thoughts easily. As noted above, I've been guiding for 20 years, and I've been the manager of a large guide service for ten of those years. I've seen every shade of guide and climber skill at one point or another (including PCIA and PCGI), and there is zero question. The guides who really grow into this career field and operate at the highest level are AMGA trained or certified. That doesn't mean that there aren't bad apples, or people who screw up...I've fired several of them... But when I -- and many of my counterparts at other large guide services -- look at applicants, the writing on the wall could not be clearer...

If you want to work as a guide, take AMGA courses...

As a side-note, here's an incomplete list of guide services or instructional schools that provide some kind of internship opportunity:

  Acadia Mountain Guides Climbing School
• Alaska Mountain Guides and Climbing School
• American Alpine Institute
• Apex Mountain School
• Ascending Path
• Black Mountain Expeditions
• Colorado Mountain Club Youth Education Program
• Elevated Mountain Guides
• GOAT Great Outdoor Adventure Trips
• Irwin Guides
• Jackson Hole Mountain Guides
• Kent Mountain Adventure Center
• Maine Bound – University of Maine
• Mica Guides
• National Outdoor Leadership School
• Northeast Mountaineering
• Outward Bound
• Rock About Climbing Adventures
• Sawtooth Mountain Guides
• Sierra Mountain Center
• Silverton Mountain
• Skyward Mountaineering
• Southern Yosemite Mountain Guides
• St. Elias Alpine Guides
• Timberline Mountain Guides
• White Mountain School

• Jason D. Martin wrote:

First ascents require research and the skill to climb the route. It's awesome when somebody does a first ascent...but it's a climbing accomplishment and not a guiding accomplishment.

Unless you're guiding the FA.  Like many of us do.  As the saying goes, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Bobby Hutton wrote:

Check out the NOLS website.

Having some kind of of Wilderness medicine cert is a pre req for an SPI. I believe they grudgingly accept Wilderness First aid but prefer a WFR or WEMT.

Technically you can take your SPI with no medical cert but to get certfied as an SPI you need to have wilderness training that fits the location you'll be guiding/working. For some places that means a WFA is fine. As others have said, It's far more valuable to do a full WFR unless you have a time constraint for a job or something. I too would encourage doing at least the SPI first and see if you like guiding. Plus, some of what you learn and practice in the SPI world is different enough than the Rock Guide world (multi-pitch) that I think it makes you a better Rock Guide in the long run.

Michael Schneiter wrote:

Technically you can take your SPI with no medical cert but to get certfied as an SPI you need to have wilderness training that fits the location you'll be guiding/working. For some places that means a WFA is fine. As others have said, It's far more valuable to do a full WFR unless you have a time constraint for a job or something. I too would encourage doing at least the SPI first and see if you like guiding. Plus, some of what you learn and practice in the SPI world is different enough than the Rock Guide world (multi-pitch) that I think it makes you a better Rock Guide in the long run.

You don't need medical certs to be certified as an SPi, you're personally responsible for having whatever is required for the area you're guiding in but whether or not you have those medical certs has no relation to the validity of your SPI certification only the validity of guiding in that area 

kevin deweese wrote:

You don't need medical certs to be certified as an SPi, you're personally responsible for having whatever is required for the area you're guiding in but whether or not you have those medical certs has no relation to the validity of your SPI certification only the validity of guiding in that area 

From the 2019 AMGA SPI Program Handbook:

"First aid training is not a pre-requisite for participation in a course or assessment. For SPI certification to be valid, however, instructors must hold appropriate medical certification for the location in which they will be working."

I'm not a guide; I'm a client. I've been "guided" by some very famous climbers in the 1970s, before the AMGA, before there was any kind of professional training or standards. That was, at times, "interesting." And I have lots of recent experience with AMGA-certified guides, who have been terrific for the most part.

But what truly matters is people skills. As a guide, you need to be able to take delight in the accomplishments of others. You need to truly love introducing people to climbing, or helping them get to the next level. You need to be good company for people who may be scared or exhausted, who might not believe they can do something. You need to be patient.

There are two guides I climb with a lot. I feel very lucky to know them and climb with them. Sometimes I think they're more psyched for what I'm doing than I am! They certainly believe in me more than I do; have helped me achieve things I couldn't have imagined. Perhaps it's not a coincidence that both of them are AMGA certified (and in fact on the board of directors).

Being a guide is being a teacher, a mentor, a friend, a protector. You must keep your client safe in an unforgiving environment. It seems like one of the hardest jobs in the world, and one of the best for the right person. 

Dave Cramer wrote: But what truly matters is people skills. As a guide, you need to be able to take delight in the accomplishments of others. You need to truly love introducing people to climbing, or helping them get to the next level. You need to be good company for people who may be scared or exhausted, who might not believe they can do something. You need to be patient.

^^^ This.

I know people who are great climbers, who have been terrible guides. And people who are fantastic guides, but average climbers. Whenever people tell me they're thinking about guiding, I always tell them that guiding is about people first, and climbing second. Guiding is basically not much like recreational climbing at all. So if you're not a fan of the customer service industry, or you have the expectation of just climbing all the time, then you will probably be disappointed.

Wow, Dave Cramer. That's awesome! Totally inspiring thoughts, thanks for that!

To the OP, every rock climbing guide/instructor works in SPI terrain at some point/throughout their career. In my opinion starting with the SPI is a logical progression from a skills and financial standpoint.

Cheers!   

1994 Mark Bolin owner of Joshua Tree Rock Climbing School, came up to me gave me a JTRCS Hat and a shirt then said you are guiding with Jim Bridwell and Steve Gerberding tomorrow, 8 clients showed up in the am, Steve, said you are doing Lead Climbing Class, Jim gets 4 people I get 4 people Steve just watched all day, at the end of the day Steve said DUDE yur in. GOt a 200$ tip on my first day guiding. Fun day indeed. I did not have any certs.

slevin wrote:

From the 2019 AMGA SPI Program Handbook:

"First aid training is not a pre-requisite for participation in a course or assessment. For SPI certification to be valid, however, instructors must hold appropriate medical certification for the location in which they will be working."

My bad for saying medical certs, I meant to type wilderness medic certs as the person I was responding had said.

Jason D. Martin wrote: As a side-note, here's an incomplete list of guide services or instructional schools that provide some kind of internship opportunity:

  Acadia Mountain Guides Climbing School
• Alaska Mountain Guides and Climbing School
• American Alpine Institute
• Apex Mountain School
• Ascending Path
• Black Mountain Expeditions
• Colorado Mountain Club Youth Education Program
• Elevated Mountain Guides
• GOAT Great Outdoor Adventure Trips
• Irwin Guides
• Jackson Hole Mountain Guides
• Kent Mountain Adventure Center
• Maine Bound – University of Maine
• Mica Guides
• National Outdoor Leadership School
• Northeast Mountaineering
• Outward Bound
• Rock About Climbing Adventures
• Sawtooth Mountain Guides
• Sierra Mountain Center
• Silverton Mountain
• Skyward Mountaineering
• Southern Yosemite Mountain Guides
• St. Elias Alpine Guides
• Timberline Mountain Guides
• White Mountain School

You dont begin to understand how helpful you've been thank you!!

If you are wanting to guide on anything with snow on it , the AMGA work requirements require you to be a Alpine Guide.  “The Alpine Guide Certification is designed for people who guide glaciated and non-glaciated peaks, approaches and climbs, with no limitation with respect to season and elevation. “

Rick.Krause Krause wrote: If you are wanting to guide on anything with snow on it , the AMGA work requirements require you to be a Alpine Guide.  “The Alpine Guide Certification is designed for people who guide glaciated and non-glaciated peaks, approaches and climbs, with no limitation with respect to season and elevation. “

Thanks however I’m only (currently)  interested in rock guiding. We’ll see how I feel about snow ;)

Rick.Krause Krause wrote: If you are wanting to guide on anything with snow on it , the AMGA work requirements require you to be a Alpine Guide.  “The Alpine Guide Certification is designed for people who guide glaciated and non-glaciated peaks, approaches and climbs, with no limitation with respect to season and elevation. “

Rick,

This is not exactly correct. There's a lot of nuance to what's happening within the AMGA right now. Here is a very very simple overview:

The AMGA has created a Scope of Practice (SOP), which requires instructors and guides to work within a TRAINING framework. This framework was built over a long period of time and is not yet required of all guides who are members of the AMGA. In 2022, the Scope of Practice will go into effect, and guides will have to work within their training framework.

The actual SOPs are complex. But the quick and the dirty is that if you were to take an AMGA Alpine Guides Course, you could guide on a standard route on a peak like Mt. Baker or Mt. Rainier, without direct supervision. You would not need to be certified to do this. There are similar rules surrounding rock work depending on what level of class you've taken. Essentially, each class you take opens new terrain, and certification in a given discipline allows you to work in all of that disciplines terrain, while also working as mentor for more junior guides.

The SOPs are complex and "guide nerdy." If you start to work as a guide, you'll hear all about them and everyone will have a good idea of what courses they need to have taken to guide in the terrain that they wish to guide in before January 1, 2022.

Drifting a little bit but after hours on the AMGA website and google, I am confused on the the difference between rock guide and rock instructor. The only differentiation I see is the standard AMGA Guides work with one or two people and Instructors work with groups. Can anyone share the SOP differences or where I as an AMGA member can find this information. Is doing the rock instructor a good option or is it worth it to just shell out the additional shekels and effort to go the rock guide route. 

Bobby Hutton wrote: Drifting a little bit but after hours on the AMGA website and google, I am confused on the the difference between rock guide and rock instructor. The only differentiation I see is the standard AMGA Guides work with one or two people and Instructors work with groups. Can anyone share the SOP differences or where I as an AMGA member can find this information. Is doing the rock instructor a good option or is it worth it to just shell out the additional shekels and effort to go the rock guide route. 

As noted, there's a lot in the Scope of Practice...way more than should really be discussed here, because of all the nuance. But like the last question, the simple answer is that a Rock Instructor can take people up routes that are up to Grade III in length. A Rock Guide can guide routes that are up to Grade V in length.

As a side-note, the Rock Instructor Certification is going to be replaced with a new certification with a different name. It might be called "multi-pitch instructor" or something like that.

The whole SOP document is somewhere in the site. I've found it before, but don't remember where.