Since I've the bits on my workbench .... The spring has 4 turns so I doubt you are weakening the spring, you are reducing the preload instead. Go too far and the weight will engage all the time which would be a hassle. Personally in the context of lead falls a few more inches wouldn't interest me in the least!
I getcha, its all personal preference. Joe posted a photo of one that bent after hitting a backup knot. I figured if you're less likely to hit your knot, you won't have to retire the thing early.
I was thinking about it more and realized both of our experiments were flawed. Basically neither device will lock up until the rope passing through it is moving fast enough. In a lead fall the climber will build up some speed before the device is loaded. So I did the experiment again with two feet of slack between my 25 pound dumbbell and the Revo...dropped it by hand a foot or more above the device. Now I’m getting 6-10 inches of rope passing through before it locks up, which is much better! The SP gets 2-3 inches.
I should point out that the SP is picky about which rope you use...first time I ever used it I had a new Beal Joker and the clove hitch wouldn’t lock up at all...the rope was too slippery. Fatter worn ropes give too much drag. So after this latest experiment I’m thinking the Revo is the better device for solo leading...it’s also smaller, lighter, and easier to rig.
I don’t use either for solo toproping...two Micro-Traxions are superior.
hummerchine wrote: I was thinking about it more and realized both of our experiments were flawed. Basically neither device will lock up until the rope passing through it is moving fast enough. In a lead fall the climber will build up some speed before the device is loaded. So I did the experiment again with two feet of slack between my 25 pound dumbbell and the Revo...dropped it by hand a foot or more above the device. Now I’m getting 6-10 inches of rope passing through before it locks up, which is much better! The SP gets 2-3 inches.
I should point out that the SP is picky about which rope you use...first time I ever used it I had a new Beal Joker and the clove hitch wouldn’t lock up at all...the rope was too slippery. Fatter worn ropes give too much drag. So after this latest experiment I’m thinking the Revo is the better device for solo leading...it’s also smaller, lighter, and easier to rig.
I don’t use either for solo tooroping...two Micro-Traxions are superior.
There shouldn't be a different in rope slippage with or without the mod. The friction between the rope and the wheel is the same in both cases. The mod would simply allow the revo to lock at a lower speed like what would happen on low angle terrain. It would also stop a fall shorter if youre closer to or below your last piece which could prevent hitting the backup knot like Justice suggested.
hummerchine wrote: I was thinking about it more and realized both of our experiments were flawed. Basically neither device will lock up until the rope passing through it is moving fast enough. In a lead fall the climber will build up some speed before the device is loaded. So I did the experiment again with two feet of slack between my 25 pound dumbbell and the Revo...dropped it by hand a foot or more above the device. Now I’m getting 6-10 inches of rope passing through before it locks up, which is much better! The SP gets 2-3 inches.
I should point out that the SP is picky about which rope you use...first time I ever used it I had a new Beal Joker and the clove hitch wouldn’t lock up at all...the rope was too slippery. Fatter worn ropes give too much drag. So after this latest experiment I’m thinking the Revo is the better device for solo leading...it’s also smaller, lighter, and easier to rig.
I don’t use either for solo toproping...two Micro-Traxions are superior.
Well yeah, that's why I kinda wondered about all this. I thought it was obvious that either you fall directly at the gear so the drop would be 1m or you've already fallen further than 1m in which case the lock-up is within 4". For a normal lead fall rope stretch and the slip from the soft catch are going to be more interesting.
hummerchine wrote: I don’t use either for solo toproping...two Micro-Traxions are superior.
I hope you are at least TR soloing with two strands. It's generally good practice to use two devices with different mechanism so that you don't have the same failure mode potentially doubled disabling both devices (or in the case of Traxions actually de-sheathing the rope). I personally use a roll'n'lock and a mini-traxion with the roll'n'lock being the primary device.
Posting here because I found this thread the most useful out of them all. Good on ya, OP, for being brave enough to do this and submit your work to the scrotiny of the MP wenis whacker brigade*.
I rope soloed Maiden Voyage this afternoon with my new Revo and it fed like a dream. Absolutely no lockups in six hundred feet. Full video and review to follow. I plan to test the stock device throughly and then possibly make the OP’s modification.
Here’s a clip from the p3 offwidth, no pre-slack in the device, just feeding like a boss. I think the Revo could be a game changer.
Yer gunna die, muthafuggaz.
*to whom I am most assuredly a contributor, c’est la vie.
Caveat: I no longer lead solo - getting too old and I’m on blood thinners so a potential back-country accident by myself is a no-go. However, I’m very much into TR-soloing and have been testing/modifying various devices to help them feed and lock up better. This thread has been an interest because of the suggested spring mod on the Revo. I haven’t done that mod yet but am considering it. I figured that my mod probably would be better off posted here than in a separate thread.
What I explain below is what has worked for me and I’ve been using for the last couple of weeks. I’m not suggesting that you do it or that it’s the best way of doing it. It’s where I’m at in my Revo TR-soloing and testing. YMMV
I’ve developed a way to help the Revo feed better for TR-solo which may also be of interest to those who use it for lead-soloing and want a better way to re-ascend their pitches in TR-mode to clean gear. This is an abbreviated version of my the longer thread over on the FB Rope Solo Climbing group. If you want more details I’d suggest joining the group over there.
1 The Revo doesn’t self-feed well in TR-solo mode because of the sharp edges of the “jaws” where the rope makes an acute bend where the rope goes up to the anchor. (This is might not be experienced as much when leading with the Revo with a cache loop because both strands would go down. However, the friction might be noticed when pulling rope for a high clip. If one is using the backpack method then the extra friction may not be encountered.)
2 By using a fat aluminum rap ring, it pulls the rope away from the edges, plus it provides a 360 deg. “bearing surface” to help the rope feed better no matter what the angle the rope enters or exits at. This is especially helpful if the route wanders a bit.
3 The bearing surface means than when rapping there is less friction because the rope doesn’t go down into the jaws as it would without the rap ring mod. There are two ways I mitigate this lesser amount of friction.
For short raps <50’ I use the “hand job” method and just squeeze the neck of the Revo along with the rope forcing it down into the jaws. Friction is controlled by how hard I squeeze it and with the friction of the other hand below on the rope. Obviously for longer routes/raps this is less than desirable unless gloves are used.
For long routes I have a oval ‘biner along with a maillon hanging off the bely loop below the Revo. At a stance, I lock the Revo by flipping the lower jaw up, push a bight of rope through the maillon onto the oval, pull down on the free strand of rope to unlock the Revo, weight it and lower. It’s easy to adjust the friction with the tension on the rope as you would rapping with an ATC.
Caveat: the bane of the Revo is not being able to lock the unit up while the rope in tensioned. The only way to do that is to take a short free-fall and let the Revo lock itself. Or, get 3-points of contact on the rock and use the free hand to grab the unit and use the index finger to flip the lower jaw up then weight the rope. Doing this, it will lock the unit but it may require up to 6” of revolution to have the cog slip into the notch on the wheel. Often it’s immediate or just a couple of inches. If the Revo were being used to clean and reascend an overhung route this would be difficult at best and probably better off using and Eddy or GriGri for leading and cleaning, even though the TR feed would not work as well.
Note: I’m not sure if my Revo is a fluke, but my Revo seems to lock up in 18”-24” of free fall. Maybe they changed the spring tension, or maybe the rap ring with less friction allows it to accelerate faster. I’m still thinking of modding the spring and see if it can be reduced even more.
Note 2: So far I’ve tested it on several ropes from 9.4 to 10mm. It seems that more than size the suppleness of the rope makes the biggest difference in reducing friction. Stiff ropes definitely have not worked as well.
Note 3: I use the Revo with the mind-set that I’m soloing - not that, “I’m only TR-soloing so I don't have to be that careful or I can push the limits". That’s what the Microtrax is for. When I do push the limits and know that I'll be whipping, I definitely will use the microtrax. The downside and the whole reason for using the Revo is that if I were using a microtrax, I'd have to swap it for a different device for rapping which is a hassle and another place for mistakes to happen. Plus many of the places I tr-solo have difficult hanging top-outs (with no bolts).
This is what I do. Don’t take it as gospel, test and figure things out for yourself. Your best protection is your knowledge, experience, wisdom/good judgement, and proceeding slowly while testing and making a system "your own". However, this may offer a way for Revo soloist to have a more integrated and better experience with this device.
If you come up with any better ways to do any of this, please share it.
Good idea, thanks for the writeup! I'll have to give it a try and compare it to my current seconding setup of two Kong Ducks. Those feed effortlessly once the rope has a bit of weight, but it would be nice to not have to fiddle with the Revo or unclip it at all between leading and seconding a pitch.
Currently when I build the top anchor, I tie it with the rope "uphill" of the device so that it's already set up to rappel. I guess to use your method and not remove the device, I'd need to use a circular / oval D quicklink, something with a gate so I could get it around the rope.
Caveat: I no longer lead solo - getting too old and I’m on blood thinners so a potential back-country accident by myself is a no-go. However, I’m very much into TR-soloing and have been testing/modifying various devices to help them feed and lock up better. This thread has been an interest because of the suggested spring mod on the Revo. I haven’t done that mod yet but am considering it. I figured that my mod probably would be better off posted here than in a separate thread.
What I explain below is what has worked for me and I’ve been using for the last couple of weeks. I’m not suggesting that you do it or that it’s the best way of doing it. It’s where I’m at in my Revo TR-soloing and testing. YMMV
I’ve developed a way to help the Revo feed better for TR-solo which may also be of interest to those who use it for lead-soloing and want a better way to re-ascend their pitches in TR-mode to clean gear. This is an abbreviated version of my the longer thread over on the FB Rope Solo Climbing group. If you want more details I’d suggest joining the group over there.
1 The Revo doesn’t self-feed well in TR-solo mode because of the sharp edges of the “jaws” where the rope makes an acute bend where the rope goes up to the anchor. (This is might not be experienced as much when leading with the Revo with a cache loop because both strands would go down. However, the friction might be noticed when pulling rope for a high clip. If one is using the backpack method then the extra friction may not be encountered.)
2 By using a fat aluminum rap ring, it pulls the rope away from the edges, plus it provides a 360 deg. “bearing surface” to help the rope feed better no matter what the angle the rope enters or exits at. This is especially helpful if the route wanders a bit.
3 The bearing surface means than when rapping there is less friction because the rope doesn’t go down into the jaws as it would without the rap ring mod. There are two ways I mitigate this lesser amount of friction.
For short raps <50’ I use the “hand job” method and just squeeze the neck of the Revo along with the rope forcing it down into the jaws. Friction is controlled by how hard I squeeze it and with the friction of the other hand below on the rope. Obviously for longer routes/raps this is less than desirable unless gloves are used.
For long routes I have a oval ‘biner along with a maillon hanging off the bely loop below the Revo. At a stance, I lock the Revo by flipping the lower jaw up, push a bight of rope through the maillon onto the oval, pull down on the free strand of rope to unlock the Revo, weight it and lower. It’s easy to adjust the friction with the tension on the rope as you would rapping with an ATC.
Caveat: the bane of the Revo is not being able to lock the unit up while the rope in tensioned. The only way to do that is to take a short free-fall and let the Revo lock itself. Or, get 3-points of contact on the rock and use the free hand to grab the unit and use the index finger to flip the lower jaw up then weight the rope. Doing this, it will lock the unit but it may require up to 6” of revolution to have the cog slip into the notch on the wheel. Often it’s immediate or just a couple of inches. If the Revo were being used to clean and reascend an overhung route this would be difficult at best and probably better off using and Eddy or GriGri for leading and cleaning, even though the TR feed would not work as well.
Note: I’m not sure if my Revo is a fluke, but my Revo seems to lock up in 18”-24” of free fall. Maybe they changed the spring tension, or maybe the rap ring with less friction allows it to accelerate faster. I’m still thinking of modding the spring and see if it can be reduced even more.
Note 2: So far I’ve tested it on several ropes from 9.4 to 10mm. It seems that more than size the suppleness of the rope makes the biggest difference in reducing friction. Stiff ropes definitely have not worked as well.
Note 3: I use the Revo with the mind-set that I’m soloing - not that, “I’m only TR-soloing so I don't have to be that careful or I can push the limits". That’s what the Microtrax is for. When I do push the limits and know that I'll be whipping, I definitely will use the microtrax. The downside and the whole reason for using the Revo is that if I were using a microtrax, I'd have to swap it for a different device for rapping which is a hassle and another place for mistakes to happen. Plus many of the places I tr-solo have difficult hanging top-outs (with no bolts).
This is what I do. Don’t take it as gospel, test and figure things out for yourself. Your best protection is your knowledge, experience, wisdom/good judgement, and proceeding slowly while testing and making a system "your own". However, this may offer a way for Revo soloist to have a more integrated and better experience with this device.
If you come up with any better ways to do any of this, please share it.
How do you back this up when TR soloing? Just knots? Seems like the speed requirements from the revo would make any other device the de facto primary.
How do you back this up when TR soloing? Just knots? Seems like the speed requirements from the revo would make any other device the de facto primary.
Yes, just an occasional back-up knot. Using another device below it or on the other line would probably lock before the Revo, though I haven't tried the spring modification.
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