4x4s vs sport climbing grade

I didnt see this on any of the forms so i thought i might pose the question/ scenario. I boulder more than i lead and am trying to get into sport climbing more, the issue is my bouldering isnt translating well into the wall.

I can do v4 4x4x4s (4sets of 4 v4 boulder problems 1 min rest inbetween sets) but im peaking on lead at barely 11b, i thought my issue was endurance, but could it be something else now? recover speed or mental game? What else can i be doing to get better at sport climbing.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

If these are gym grades that sounds about right to me. The solution is to get better generally.

V4 is about = to 5.10d or 5.11a in difficulty of individual movements. So if you want to get better leading I'd focus on learning how to rest on the wall and your head game around falling on lead. 

V4 is more like 12-.  i agree w/ the OP, you should be climbing quite a bit harder if that is your 4x4 group.

You have any lead head issues? Also, I found doing more problems with less rest to be helpful for my routes. I max out at v8 projecting in my gym, so I will do all the v3-v5s (300ish pts on varying terrain) in a session left to right as quickly as possible, resting 5 min every time I fall due to pump. it isn't precise, but if you can do problems rapidly enough with good form, I find it simulates the easy,crux, easy nature of most routes and yo cover a lot of ground, sweat like a pig, and your endurance soars. With some max power bouldering, enduro bouldering, and a bit of core and hangboarding I still only lead like 5.12- consistently in the gym. YMMV.

You may need to work on your efficiency (through technique work).  There are lots of good articles / videos on how to do this.  One exercise I've had success with is repeating boulders at or just above your flash level.  Think about body tension, foot work, beta, etc. and try to make that boulder as easy as possible.

You may also need to learn how to rest effectively.  This made a big difference for me.

If you are confident that your endurance is the issue, Steve Bechtel has some good thoughts on effective endurance training.  I applied the concepts from this article to my last training cycle and was pretty stunned at the results:

https://www.climbstrong.com/education-center/endurance-3-0/

Truth is that bouldering grades and YDS grades don't line up because they're two very different disciplines. I can lead 5.11d/5.12a but bouldering V5 scares the shit out of me. Success at one doesn't ensure success at the other. 

Señor Arroz wrote: Truth is that bouldering grades and YDS grades don't line up because they're two very different disciplines. I can lead 5.11d/5.12a but bouldering V5 scares the shit out of me. Success at one doesn't ensure success at the other. 

That lines up well. V5 is 12b minimum. I have done 5.13s with nothing harder than V5.

Your leading 5.12s now Senor Arrzo outdoors if so awesome dude now we can hit it.

slim wrote: V4 is more like 12-.  i agree w/ the OP, you should be climbing quite a bit harder if that is your 4x4 group.

The issue is gym grades. In an effort to have stuff friendly for new people low v grades in the gym are shifted. New people often can't climb 5.11 so if v1 is set correctly new people will have nothing to boulder. Gym v4 is outside v1ish then by v7 to v8  they equal out. 

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Your leading 5.12s now Senor Arrzo outdoors if so awesome dude now we can hit it.

We're talking about gym grades here, Jeff. You know that. Guess I'll just have to wait longer until I meet your standards....

Jake Jones wrote:

That’s funny.  I’m the exact opposite.  I started focusing on bouldering more the last couple years to get stronger and feel fine even on relatively tall problems, if there is adequate padding- while I still often overgrip and degrade to shit technique because I fall apart mentally on a rope- over gear or bolts.  

Yep, opposite here. I don't mind whipping on lead at all. But falling 10-12 feet onto a padded floor is not attractive to me in any way. 

Francis J. wrote: I didnt see this on any of the forms so i thought i might pose the question/ scenario. I boulder more than i lead and am trying to get into sport climbing more, the issue is my bouldering isnt translating well into the wall.

I can do v4 4x4x4s (4sets of 4 v4 boulder problems 1 min rest inbetween sets) but im peaking on lead at barely 11b, i thought my issue was endurance, but could it be something else now? recover speed or mental game? What else can i be doing to get better at sport climbing.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Before anyone can assess what your real problem is, give us a better rundown of your climbing history as well as a typical training week.

Why not drop the ratings down in the gym, so they match OD climbing. I have taken people that 12 out indoors but outdoors can't OS a 10b sport route let alone a trad one. I just don't get it.

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Why not drop the ratings down in the gym, so they match OD climbing. I have taken people that 12 out indoors but outdoors can't OS a 10b sport route let alone a trad one. I just don't get it.

Or realize that gym climbing and outside climbing are two separate things.  I like it that people go outside, get shut down, then revert back to gym climbing.  I see the gym as a training tool to prepare me to be a better outside climber, so I use it as such.  

On a side note, I have climbed far more 12+ routes outside than I ever have in gyms.  

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Why not drop the ratings down in the gym, so they match OD climbing. I have taken people that 12 out indoors but outdoors can't OS a 10b sport route let alone a trad one. I just don't get it.

Different things, really. I've also climbed with people who are really solid outdoors who flailed in the gym because it was alien to them. My own opinion is that you get good at what you do most and it only transfers partially in either direction. Certainly climbing in the gym a lot (because I take my daughter 2-3 days per week for her comp team practices and I climb during that time) has made me a stronger OD climber, too. But not like if I'd been climbing outdoors 3 days per week. I wish I did have more time outdoors. But life isn't always cooperative.

It's kind of like comparing surfing in a wave pool to surfing in the ocean. Some skills translate. Others don't.

The one thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the difference between aerobic endurance and power endurance, which is what 4 x 4s train.  Have you tried Arcing, or even just lapping gym routes?  It seems like maybe you need to up your volume at the expense of intensity for a while.

If you are new to sport climbing, it is possible that you are very inefficient on clipping/rope management, and/or have mental issues related to leading/falling. And this, rather than just endurance/ power endurance is what’s holding you back. These things only come with mileage and practice, so in addition to your gym 4x4 s you should make an effort to go climhingboitside a lot, and endurance will come. 

I don’t know where you climb, but it is also possible that the grading of routes outside, and the grading indoors are very different. Or maybe your routes and your boulders require a different set of skills/technique.

Climbing at the RRG, for example, which is very gym-like, in terms of technique/skill set required, 4x4s on V2/V3 (assuming real V2/V3) is more than sufficient to get your PE into solid 5.12 range.  And 4x4s on V4 will be 12+/13-. 
So if you are sure that fear, technique deficiency, etc, are not your problem, if you don’t get shut down by individual moves on routes, you just get pumped on long routes, but have no trouble climbing individual sections of the route, then the obvious conclusion is that the gym V4s are not real V4s, and you need to work your way up to 4x4s on gym V5’s or V6’s to increase your PE to the level you need for the routes you are working. Or, you might need to lengthen your 4x4s into 4x6, or 6x8, etc. to make them more in line with the typical route length. 

Eric Carlos wrote:

Before anyone can assess what your real problem is, give us a better rundown of your climbing history as well as a typical training week.

Thanks for all the help, i think there is definitely some truth in gym grades not always translating to OD. My hardest boulders outdoors was a V4.

• Trainning routine changes month to month. For February/currently i typically do bouldering an hr beforejumping on the  Moonboard mondays barely getting v4, tuesday is endurance. Weighted auto belay routes max 10 at 5.9-5.11 level then messing around bouldering, wednesday rest or if im up for it perfect bouldering, then Thursday rest or opposing muscle wkts, friday just bouldering sat/ sunday 4x4x4s  or lead or systems board

*edit Actually saying my routine outloud noticed that i maynot be leading enough

Francis J. wrote:

Thanks for all the help, i think there is definitely some truth in gym grades not always translating to OD. My hardest boulders outdoors was a V4.

• Trainning routine changes month to month. For February/currently i typically do bouldering an hr beforejumping on the  Moonboard mondays barely getting v4, tuesday is endurance. Weighted auto belay routes max 10 at 5.9-5.11 level then messing around bouldering, wednesday rest or if im up for it perfect bouldering, then Thursday rest or opposing muscle wkts, friday just bouldering sat/ sunday 4x4x4s  or lead or systems board

*edit Actually saying my routine outloud noticed that i maynot be leading enough

You need more time on the wall.  Scrap the weighted auto belay, as at this point (or probably ever) it is of no use.  Pick a focus for the day.  Max strength, endurance/recoverability, or power/strength endurance.  

Francis J. wrote:

Thanks for all the help, i think there is definitely some truth in gym grades not always translating to OD. My hardest boulders outdoors was a V4.

• Trainning routine changes month to month. For February/currently i typically do bouldering an hr beforejumping on the  Moonboard mondays barely getting v4, tuesday is endurance. Weighted auto belay routes max 10 at 5.9-5.11 level then messing around bouldering, wednesday rest or if im up for it perfect bouldering, then Thursday rest or opposing muscle wkts, friday just bouldering sat/ sunday 4x4x4s  or lead or systems board

*edit Actually saying my routine outloud noticed that i maynot be leading enough

You have stated the problem.  If Moonboard pegs you out at barely V4, then you likely can't climb V4. The issue is the Moonboard doesn't have grades below V4 so when you climb V4's they could be V2-V4.  The most common repeats for any grade are going to be the low end of the grade.  This puts you at V2 which is approximately 11B.  

After seeing all the advice you have received.  I can say you should first identify someone who has the strengths and skills you aspire to and then conceder their advice.  We have seen a lot of 5.11 or sub V4 climbers tell you how to train. I would look for someone who climbs V10+ or 5.14 to teach me about training. Below these grades progress can be made by just climbing more and trying hard.