Ridiculous Climbing Gym Policies...Let's Hear Them

In the last year, I've come across several gyms with "safety" policies that are completely baffling to me.  Here's a place to vent your frustration with climbing gym policies not having a basis in reality/fact/reason.  If you don't want to piss anyone off, feel free to keep the name of the gym to yourself.  It would be my honor to get things started...

1. Use of Edelrid Ohm is forbidden.  There are no ground anchors.  Belaying with weights attached to reduce weight difference is forbidden.  The solution to large weight difference between leader and belayer is a policy stipulating that the leader cannot be >30 lbs heavier.  I've never seen the weight difference policy being enforced, but I asked about using an Ohm and was told that I couldn't use one.  On the other hand, I saw several dangerous situations due to a large weight difference.
2.  Grigri 1 is not an approved belay device.  Grigri 2 or newer is fine.  Megajul is fine, BD pilot is fine, but somehow Alpine Up is not...I don't even know what else to say about this one...
3.  When downclimbing a lead route, you cannot unclip the lowest three draws.  Why 3?  Why not just disallow downclimbing?
4.  Minimum required rope length for leading is 40 meters...The walls are <12 meters tall...

And before you tell me about how all these policies are really because of insurance companies...riddle me this: There are hundreds of modern gyms in this country and presumably a very small number of insurers.  It's reasonable to expect that there would be some sort of "standard" for a climbing gym insurance policy.  If these policies were really imposed by the insurers, then one would expect to see similar nonsensical policies at a very large number of climbing gyms.  What I've observed is that different gyms have drastically differing policies and enforcement, which leads me to believe that the insurance companies aren't really the heart of the issue.

Edit: Just remembered another insane policy....
5.  In this particular gym, you are not allowed to show your friend how to build an anchor, make a sliding X, set up an ATC in guide mode, clean a route, or do anything else that might resemble teaching...and I'm not talking about climbing a route and pretending that you're outside, I mean you aren't supposed to do this while standing on the ground next to a wall that has a few random bolts attached to it and looks like it was made for exactly this purpose.

It’s because of insurance policies.
Also, people are inherently dumb.

Derrick W wrote: 
3.  When downclimbing a lead route, you cannot unclip the lowest three draws.  Why 3?  Why not just disallow downclimbing?

My gym doesn't even let you down-climb a lead route, whether you un-clip or not.

Movement Boulder won't allow me to tie in with a bowline. I looked and apparently no staff members have told Lynn Hill about the policy yet.

on second thought...I guess that's fair...

Derrick W wrote: In the last year, I've come across several gyms with "safety" policies that are completely baffling to me.  Here's a place to vent your frustration with climbing gym policies not having a basis in reality/fact/reason.  If you don't want to piss anyone off, feel free to keep the name of the gym to yourself.  It would be my honor to get things started...

1. Use of Edelrid Ohm is forbidden.  There are no ground anchors.  Belaying with weights attached to reduce weight difference is forbidden.  The solution to large weight difference between leader and belayer is a policy stipulating that the leader cannot be >30 lbs heavier.  I've never seen the weight difference policy being enforced, but I asked about using an Ohm and was told that I couldn't use one.  On the other hand, I saw several dangerous situations due to a large weight difference.
2.  Grigri 1 is not an approved belay device.  Grigri 2 or newer is fine.  Megajul is fine, BD pilot is fine, but somehow Alpine Up is not...I don't even know what else to say about this one...
3.  When downclimbing a lead route, you cannot unclip the lowest three draws.  Why 3?  Why not just disallow downclimbing?
4.  Minimum required rope length for leading is 40 meters...The walls are <12 meters tall...

Dayum these are some weird rules, with one exception #3.
2. Could you also not use an ATC in that gym?

3. This kinda makes sense depending on the clip spacing. Considering in most gyms that 3 clips is not that far up and the average lax belay (ie kinda shitty)  you see in a gym. It's not that hard to deck or hit your belayer in that three clips and under range. How many people downclimb an entire lead route though...?

4.Weird, is that gym part of a chain of gyms that has taller walls? Like Touchstone, Sender, and Planet Granite have locations where a 30M is fine but others you absolutely need a 35 or 40M rope. 

Jonathan Awerbuch wrote: Movement Boulder won't allow me to tie in with a bowline. I looked and apparently no staff members have told Lynn Hill about the policy yet.

She did mess it up once before...

NorCalNomad wrote:

2. All the topropes in that gym have grigris permanently affixed to the belay side and autolockers permanently affixed to the climbers side.  So my comment is only relevant for leading and there are exactly 3 "approved belay devices"

3. I understand the motivation for the policy.  My point is that the risk is exactly the same whether you are climbing up or down...

4. The gym isn't part of a chain...

There are standards on what insurance companies will or won't allow.  There are standards set by Climbing Wall Association regarding best practices.  None of the things you mentioned fall under those standards.  Sounds like some shenanigans on the part of those particular gyms.

An important thing to remember in general is that when you enter a climbing gym, the traditionally ragtag, outlaw, learn-as-you-go activity of rock climbing has entered an established business, which is required to operate according to insurance policies and industry standards.  Gym owners have taken the full financial risk of being shut down (lawsuits, etc.), so they get to make the call on what they will and won't allow, however silly that may be.  (My guess is the no grigri 1 policy comes from "ideal" rope diameters for certain belay devices).  Certain "not a big deal" things are not allowed because they're not BEST practices.  We all know you can take your hand off the brake rope on a grigri, for instance, but that is not the BEST practice.  Sometimes when I climb outside, I may choose to do something that slightly, or even marginally, increases my risk level.  I know what I'm doing and am comfortable relying on my experience and judgment.  However, when I walk into a business I expect to operate under their rules.  I'll tie a damn figure 8 when I lead if they want me to, even though I'd rather use a bowline.

I understand your confusion about how all these stupid policies could be for insurance reasons.  Some policies are indeed made according to insurance/industry standards, but some are up to the individual gym.  Also, consider the average high school-aged gym employee.  They might say things without really knowing what they're talking about. For something that has nothing to do with insurance, they might just say that because they don't know any better.  It's easier to say "it's out of my hands" than it is to explain the finer points of why a policy exists.  Also, customers frequently react negatively and become defensive when they're being corrected, even if it's over something as black-and-white as taking their brake hand off while belaying with an ATC.  Sometimes it's just easier to present it as "my insurance company says..."  This shifts the anger from the employee to the insurance company.  Although this diffuses the conflict, I think it's more important to have that tough conversation with a customer to explain why certain policies exist.  However, untrained or conflict-avoidant staff will just deflect it away from themselves.

I'd say a bigger issue in climbing gyms is employees not noticing/recognizing dangerous behavior (look around most gyms at peak hours and you'll usually see at least one SKETCHY belay).  Yes, sometimes they are overbearing regarding unnecessarily strict policies, but many facilities aren't even watching what's going on inside their walls.

P.S.  The Ohm policy is asinine and most likely made out of ignorance.  Fun fact: I have managed a gym for years and we have gained some members due to one of our other neighborhood gyms not allowing the Ohm :)   

Brian Sundermann wrote: ...

Thanks for the very informative post.  I try to be friendly and understanding when confronted with policies that I think are asinine...it might be that my frustration stems from the business side of climbing gyms.  For example, I was told that one of reasons the Grigri 1 policy is in place was so that they could tell their (newbie) staff members "these are the only approved belay devices."  From an economic aspect, I get that having the less knowledgable staff is an asset because you don't have to pay them as much, but I see that perspective as doing a disservice to the climbing community as a whole and as an abdication of responsibility by the gym ownership.  I guess I'm just pining for the days when gym owners were actually climbers and cared about the climbing community, rather than investors looking to make a buck.

It also pisses me off that everyone just points to the insurance companies as the bad guys.  I get it when gym employees do that because they just want to avoid confrontation with the customer.  But when others who have no idea what insurance standards look like (see first reply in this thread for example) make that argument, they're effectively siding with the gym owners and managers who I feel are part of the problem (not talking about you).

Rant over.

Derrick W wrote:

Thanks for the very informative post.  I try to be friendly and understanding when confronted with policies that I think are asinine...it might be that my frustration stems from the business side of climbing gyms.  For example, I was told that one of reasons the Grigri 1 policy is in place was so that they could tell their (newbie) staff members "these are the only approved belay devices."  From an economic aspect, I get that having the less knowledgable staff is an asset because you don't have to pay them as much, but I see that perspective as doing a disservice to the climbing community as a whole and as an abdication of responsibility by the gym ownership.  I guess I'm just pining for the days when gym owners were actually climbers and cared about the climbing community, rather than investors looking to make a buck.

It also pisses me off that everyone just points to the insurance companies as the bad guys.  I get it when gym employees do that because they just want to avoid confrontation with the customer.  But when others who have no idea what insurance standards look like (see first reply in this thread for example) make that argument, they're effectively siding with the gym owners and managers who I feel are part of the problem (not talking about you).

Rant over.

I assure you, people do still care.  There are many gyms run by passionate climbers and highly-trained staff.  Not everyone operates this way, and I don't think it's anything new.  It's been going on as long as gyms have existed.  I don't think people hire incompetent staff exclusively for economic reasons, but I'm sure that's part of it.  It's interesting to see how the sport is changing.  On one hand, I make a living wage and have a good benefits package as a climbing gym employee, which was nearly unheard of 20 years ago.  On the other hand, proliferation always leads to things getting watered down.  It'll be very interesting to see where the dust settles in 20 years.

None of these policies are hard to follow nor hardly worth a proper MP rant. Just climb brah. 

I went to a gym that requires you to pass a "fall test" for bouldering. I failed. Falling on demand is kinda fucked up and should not be a part of anyone's policy.

NorCalNomad wrote:

How many people downclimb an entire lead route though...?

I and all my partners do as part of our warmups. 

Albi Eds wrote: I went to a gym that requires you to pass a "fall test" for bouldering. I failed. Falling on demand is kinda fucked up and should not be a part of anyone's policy.

this rule is easy to get around. just tell them you never fall bouldering :)

Albi Eds wrote: I went to a gym that requires you to pass a "fall test" for bouldering. I failed. Falling on demand is kinda fucked up and should not be a part of anyone's policy.

You've never seen people stiff-leg a bouldering fall?

1. Hip belays not allowed
2. I'm not allowed to use my personal Goldline climbing rope to lead
3. Swami belts prohibited
4. They get pissed when I hammer pitons into the artificial crack
5. Not allowed to carry a bottle of Tin Cup whiskey up the wall

TaylorP wrote:

My gym doesn't even let you down-climb a lead route, whether you un-clip or not.

On an overhanging lead wall down climbing w/out unclipping at all could get exciting if a fall happened close to the ground. :)

Derrick W wrote: Edit: Just remembered another insane policy....
5.  In this particular gym, you are not allowed to show your friend how to build an anchor, make a sliding X, set up an ATC in guide mode, clean a route, or do anything else that might resemble teaching...and I'm not talking about climbing a route and pretending that you're outside, I mean you aren't supposed to do this while standing on the ground next to a wall that has a few random bolts attached to it and looks like it was made for exactly this purpose.

I've witnessed many of climbers confidently pass on blatantly incorrect information. This is one rule, I totally understand. Whether it's ground level or not, those skills will eventually be put into practice, whether correct or not, in a situation where the consequences of mistakes are high. In a perfect world, the gym would allow for a culture of learning and education among peers, but in such a way that bad information isn't passed on. Maybe dedicated times (non-peak hours) where trained staff are made available to assist/supervise learning and answering questions. 

E MuuD wrote:

On an overhanging lead wall down climbing w/out unclipping at all could get exciting if a fall happened close to the ground. :)

That's the fun part!

No climbing shoes in the bathroom.