Best Knot for Girth Hitch Loop

Howdy!

I'm making my kid a personal tether using a Kong Slyde and rather than figure eight tie in each time I want to just girth hitch it to his harness. What's the best knot to make a small loop on the end of the line? The Overhand or Figure 8 on a bight make a physically large knot which I think will get in the way. I'd like something small and compact to make a sturdy loop. Bowline?

Opinions?

Bowline will require a stopper knot, make it bulkier so I would just go with an overhand on a bight and make the loop just large enough for the girth hitch so that the overhand is very close to the harness and less in the way. 

David Dentry wrote: Howdy!

I'm making my kid a personal tether using a Kong Slyde and rather than figure eight tie in each time I want to just girth hitch it to his harness.

Why are you removing the tether from the harness each time you use it? Just leave it tied to the tie-in points with a figure 8, and clip the other end to a gear loop along the side.

The Overhand or Figure 8 on a bight make a physically large knot which I think will get in the way.

Just try it. You're trying to solve a problem that you aren't even sure is a problem yet.

In fact, I'd go with the figure 8 on a bight, which is even more physically large than the overhand. The only issue is that, depending on how this tether is going to be used, you're relying on this like a tie-in knot, and you're leaving it tied for long periods of time. You want something that won't come undone. I personally wouldn't trust an overhand on a bight to stay tied and never slip over many uses, and would feel the need to inspect it each time. I'd much rather just use a figure 8 and not have to think about it. Yes, it's bulkier, but the safety of not having yet another potentially-deadly thing to remember to check is worth more to me than a bit of bulk savings which may not even be a problem.

Why are you tying and untying the PAS each time you use it? Just leave it tied to the tie-in points with a figure 8, and clip the other end to a gear loop along the side.

I think you might want to consider that its very worthwhile to attach and detach your PAS from your harness so that you can inspect both the hard points and the belay loop.
This is from a report on the failure of Todd Skinners harness:
"[Ranger] Faherty also found a sling girth-hitched to the broken belay loop, which Hewitt believed had been in place for some time and prevented the belay loop from rotating and absorbing wear evenly. “Also broken was the keeper strap on the leg loops,” ranger Faherty wrote. Loss of the keeper strap would free the leg loops to saw against belay loop, often in the same spot, given Skinner’s harness set-up."

William Helmer wrote: I think you might want to consider that its very worthwhile to attach and detach your PAS from your harness so that you can inspect both the hard points and the belay loop.
This is from a report on the failure of Todd Skinners harness:
"[Ranger] Faherty also found a sling girth-hitched to the broken belay loop, which Hewitt believed had been in place for some time and prevented the belay loop from rotating and absorbing wear evenly. “Also broken was the keeper strap on the leg loops,” ranger Faherty wrote. Loss of the keeper strap would free the leg loops to saw against belay loop, often in the same spot, given Skinner’s harness set-up."

Removing the tether to inspect the harness has nothing to do with the Todd Skinner accident, because the damage to Todd Skinner's belay loop was visible WITHOUT removing the tether.

From here:

Prior to the accident,
Hewitt and Skinner had noticed the frayed loop, and according to Hewitt, the two were concerned about it.

And in a more general sense, we should be hesitant to extrapolate safety practices from what is a fairly isolated incident in the history of climbing.

Of course you should inspect belay loops and tie in points, but given how incredibly rare it is for these components to fail, they certainly don't have to be inspected so frequently that untying and retying a figure 8 each time you do it is a problem.

David beat me to posting, so see the knot part of my post..
.Interesting that left out of all that quoting is that JH & TS spoke about how some people add a second piece of Cord/webbing/tape, a second loop,
Less than a $1 worth of cord... could have made all the difference.

William Helmer wrote: I think you might want to consider that its very worthwhile to attach and detach your PAS from your harness so that you can inspect both the hard points and the belay loop.
This is from a report on the failure of Todd Skinners harness:
"[Ranger] Faherty also found a sling girth-hitched to the broken belay loop, which Hewitt believed had been in place for some time and prevented the belay loop from rotating and absorbing wear evenly. “Also broken was the keeper strap on the leg loops,” ranger Faherty wrote. Loss of the keeper strap would free the leg loops to saw against belay loop, often in the same spot, given Skinner’s harness set-up."

The amount of physical work that T.Skinner's rig was forced to withstand was off the charts ... Not in any way equivalent to what is being proposed here.

Still, I think that it is better to re-tie, every time, when tieing in.
-  A part of the safe way to learn  

- slow down -.
 teach the process of tieing in every time \The redundancy of doing it every time so that safe, best practice becomes ingrained,
 & the way it is done every time allowing for inspection of the critical single point where you are attached to the harness

That said, I do something like that with a  Kong, Adjustable FiFi hook & 5-6 mil cord,  instead of a slyde


I use a Single fisherman's knot, tied back to form a loop, basically a 2 wrap simple overhand. tied at the end of a line, forming a slip knot.

The downside -with lots of weight-  it can & does cinch down very tight & can 'weld', needing to be cut off on occasion.

I would up-grade to this "Personal Anchor System" & consider making it into 2, a long one & short one  by removing a loop, YMMV

Kelley Gilleran wrote:

The above knot, with a  keeper, or  "safety" cinched up snug to the main knot on the tail,
And/Or - what, the following post recommends.
 
 

Just leave it tied on. If you don’t like that, I’d be using an overhand on a night for the girth hitch loop, but that’s going to be bulkier and take up a lot of room in the tie in points. The other knot that might work is the scaffold knot which I would tie using a triple overhand, rather than just a double, for this purpose

Anchor Hitch

David Kerkeslager wrote:...Yes, it's bulkier, but the safety of not having yet another potentially-deadly thing to remember to check is worth more to me than a bit of bulk savings which may not even be a problem.

I think that regardless of which knot (or whatever you're using for whatever purpose. etc), I'd check it every time anyway. Just because....and ESPECIALLY when a new user is being shown how to do things. And double-secret-especially if it's my son/grandson, etc. :-) 

Lots of great feedback. I wanted something easy to take on/off, as we often switch between indoor and outdoor climbing, as well as something less obtrusive than a second big Figure 8 on the harness.

I do, however, see the benefits of sticking with an easy knot that he already knows (Figure 8) and the security of making it just part of the routine to tie the tether onto the harness when he ties in to the rope. Thanks for the comments!

-David

i don't think you'll find something with a lower profile than an overhand on a bight without something like splicing or stitching.

Chris Blatchley wrote: i don't think you'll find something with a lower profile than an overhand on a bight without something like splicing or stitching.

Except the anchor hitch

Which is actually fully functional and safe to use without a safety hitch in the tail. 3" tail is standard for being tied dressed and set.

Industry standard for Arboriculture

Kelley Gilleran wrote:

Except the anchor hitch

Which is actually fully functional and safe to use without a safety hitch in the tail. 3" tail is standard for being tied dressed and set.

Industry standard for Arboriculture

That looks to be used for tying to a carabiner, but I question whether it would stay snug to a harness’s tie in points. Have you used it in that way before?

As long as it is 1 anchor point that doesn't spread the knot. Its bomber.

Yes if your tying into two points with opposite directions of load it is not a good choice

Thread cordalette thru tie in points, close into loop with fisherman knots. Or, close cordalette with fisherman knots, then girth hitch to belay loop or tie in points. Crush it! 

You could also skip the bight knot and tie the girth hitch with the end and just finish with an overhand or double overhand around the load strand. 

anglers loop, its like a bowline but harder to tie but doesn't really need a stopper knot

Suburban Roadside wrote:
I use a Single fisherman's knot, tied back to form a loop, basically a 2 wrap simple overhand. tied at the end of a line, forming a slip knot. 

This is actually a double overhand knot around the rope or half of a double fishermans (which is 2 double overhands in opposition).