Any Grivel Cramp-o-Matic system allows you to lose crampons

I *love* my Grivel G14s, monopoint, but this post is  all Grivel "cramp-o-matic"s, including the Rambos:   Couple a weeks ago in Ouray, I was kicking and my cramps didn't seem to stick, looked down and Hey, What the F____!  No crampon!!!!  How lost??? Think I forgot my strap? -Guess again!  Cramp was on the snow below, STILL WITH STRAP ATTACHED AS IF AROUND MY BOOT!!!

I discussed this matter with the very knowledgable tall thin guy with black hair in ponytail at the Ouray climbing shop.  He said all major mfgrs have dumped the metal toe strap like in the "cramp-o-matic" system.  Consider: If you had a retaining strap around your ankle, cramp cannot go, it's caught between thick calf and thick boot. Here, however, the strap is several times your ankle diamater, easily comes off boot if cramp dislodges.  Shop guy said: 1) tighten cramps and 2) snip metal strap.  

This would SOOOO SUCK on a long climb.

Mfgr response-?   Your Experience? Anyone else try to mod by removing metal strap?

You mean the metal linking bar that comes off the toe bail for the strap? Yeah, some manufacturers still use them. I cut all mine off. 

^^

Yup, that's definitely the point to take home from this. Your crampon shouldn't pop off in the first place, regardless of the retaining strap mechanism. 

Ziggy Chalkdust wrote: I use the metal strap attached to the bail on my stingers and cyborgs... should I really cut off the metal thing and stop doing that?

In a word, yes.  Especially if you have large-ish boots, which pose a problem for Cyborg toe bails.

I cut the metal strap off my Cyborgs and shortened the retaining strap so it was an appropriate length. One drawback is I now have to undo the retaining strap to open my gaiters and tighten my boots. I'm thinking about removing the retaining strap completely since I've never once had my crampons pop off. Except then Murphy's Law will probably get me.

For what it's worth, I got the Grivel C2N bails and put them on my G20 Pluses. The fit on my Scarpa Rebel Ultras and Ribelle Techs is more snug than with the wire bail with absolutely zero wiggling no matter how hard I try. They are easy to use, and I'm way less concerned about them popping off. Seriously, they are better than the wire bails, and I don’t know why they aren’t more popular in the US. I don't think I'm ever going back to wire toe bails

Ziggy Chalkdust wrote:

this has happened to me also, with g20s

...And the G20s dont have the thin metal strip that connects the front bail to the strap.
This would be my recommendation to leave the thin metal strip in tact and NOT cut it off. if It ain't broke don't fix it. 

A partner of mine has lost both G20s in the same day because the front bails failed and there was no strap to keep the thin wire bail from ending up lost in the snow.

But to each their own..

Gunkiemike wrote:

In a word, yes.  Especially if you have large-ish boots, which pose a problem for Cyborg toe bails.

But why? I fail to see how it's the metal strip's fault, unless you mean that strip causes the toe bail to not fit properly?

Ziggy Chalkdust wrote:

its because you have a larger loop of webbing, that can escape around your boot with the crampon if the bail comes off.

Exactly this. If the little metal strips were twice as long, they wouldn't be a problem.

Ziggy Chalkdust wrote:

its because you have a larger loop of webbing, that can escape around your boot with the crampon if the bail comes off.

Understood about the large loop of webbing being a problem AFTER the bail fails, but I think what  Tangeman is asking is, is the thin metal strip getting in the way as the root cause of why the bail is coming off?  Why is the bail coming off in the first place?

Dan Allard wrote:

Understood about the large loop of webbing being a problem AFTER the bail fails, but I think what  Tangeman is asking is, is the thin metal strip getting in the way as the root cause of why the bail is coming off?  Why is the bail coming off in the first place?

Because their crampon wasn't fitted well to the boot. User error. 

I've used Grivel for 10 years, no problems. I fell and broke my ankle and the crampon was still attached the boot. (My foot on the other hand wasn't well attached the rest of my leg.)

Dan Allard wrote:

Understood about the large loop of webbing being a problem AFTER the bail fails, but I think what  Tangeman is asking is, is the thin metal strip getting in the way as the root cause of why the bail is coming off?  Why is the bail coming off in the first place?

Yeah, makes sense now though, thanks all! The logic behind cutting the metal strip being that then the strap would just be around the ankle, therefore securing the crampon if it pops off, whereas with the metal strip the strap does nothing useful. 

But yes, the real problem is ill-fitted crampons.

Matthew Tangeman wrote:

Yeah, makes sense now though, thanks all! The logic behind cutting the metal strip being that then the strap would just be around the ankle, therefore securing the crampon if it pops off, whereas with the metal strip the strap does nothing useful. 

But yes, the real problem is ill-fitted crampons.

My suggestion is that the left in tact, as manufactured, metal strip provides usefulness in that it keeps the bail connected to the rest of the crampon redundantly, whereas when you cut off the tab, should the bail wire pop out [because the crampon wasn't fit correctly] the bail wire falls into the snow or slides down the icy slope below and you never see it again, your day is pretty much over, and hopefully you weren't depending on crampons for safe walk back home.

I too have [ab]used the same Cramp o matic system Grivels with metal tab for over 10 years in mixed terrain, have never had a single issue, and frankly wouldn't recommend any other system for technical ice based on that unwavering dependability.

A friend was climbing ptarmagin ridge on Rainier and lost a crampon entirely (grivel with the metal strip). Needless to say that became a very long day for him.... if he didn’t have the metal strip and the toe bail popped off and fell away would have have been better off? Meh, perhaps. Either way the crampon is more or less useless. Maybe an attachment method could be jerryrigged. That being said, chances are if your crampon falls off it’s due to the toe bail getting knocked out of the toe welt on your boot not the toe bail coming off the crampon as people have mentioned above. Given that, I’d ditch the metal strips. Plus, think of all the grams you’ll save!

I'm really glad I went back and looked at this again - I forgot to re-tighten my crampons!

Anyway, Porter M said,

Given that, I’d ditch the metal strips. Plus, think of all the grams you’ll save!

At the end of your foot, a few grams is SERIOUS, and no joke.  I'll totally go with that.

1. tighten the crap out of all your crampons, and bang them to fit perfectly on your toe welt.
2. Cut the metal strip.  It's just dead weight.
3. Cut the webbing safety strap down to reduce weight further, since it will only go around your ankle now. Or better, replace with a little clip.

Finally, someone raised the suggestion of blaming the Grivels and ditching them- I think that's a huge mistake.  I think the crampons perform exceptionally well, and the monopoints changed my life. We've already had some other enthusiastic defenders above (I would request we, as a community, skip that shouting match.)

For sure I'm going with alpinejason here:

Because their crampon wasn't fitted well to the boot. User error.

So, again, no. 1 is to tighten and check fit.

I note that during the same climbing trip, I saw my partner's crampons constantly skittering off the ice (some kind of BD I think?), and I don't think that was him, he knows what he's doing just fine. (They were fairly new.  Maybe they could have used a little sharpening on the last day (?)  but were sharp enough on the first day.  Something about them did suck...more than my partner, I'm quite sure.)  So, there are sucking crampons out there, but definitely not grivels.  Just cut the strips, and as several people have said, you'll be fine.

Hey manufacturer, as this list of replies and reads grows, are you SURE you don't want to chime in???

-TPC

Bails should not fall out, and if you are having issues with that, bend them so they don't fall out! This is basic crampon maintenance, dude. They can loosen a bit and change shape over time.

Then you can free yourself of the useless metal straps. Grivel has probably not changed because the design is really fine, and gives people the choice. Advanced users in the know will chop them.

In my opinion Grivel is currently the most reliable brand on the market. If you want an exploding toe bail (then you will really have no crampon!), buy Petzl. Questionable frame integrity (get to buy complete new crampons when they explode) buy BD. I did notice BD quietly changed a lot of frame designs, and failures do not seem to be popping up as often, so my trust in them is slowly coming back.

I've had three crampons pop off in my life.Once soloing in Boulder Canyon, when I jammed a modified Lightfang into a crack which in turn compressed the front bail, causing it to fall off.
Once on Rainier, after seeminly marching forever up one the ridges( can't remember which) My Salewa Zoom( these at one time had metal straps) popped off, probably just loosened up.
And once, outside of Beijing, in front of a bunch of Chinese, my Grivel G14( with a metal strap,well,well,well) popped off; quite embarassing.
I've in turn, have switched to Semi-Automatics(baskets), these also have a lengthy strap around the ankle, but seem more secure around the toe.
I believe Steve House mentioned this some where.