What were classic limestone crags like in the beginning? - Rock Quality

We've got a limestone crag we have started to put routes in on.  And I think it has a lot of potential to be a good crag one day. But it does have some loose rock, chossy bands, etc and the routes generally need a good cleaning. I am thinking in terms of rock quality here. 

This got me thinking?  What were some of the classic limestone crags like back in the day?  I am thinking of places like Siurana, Ceuse, Kalymnos, etc. In my experience at various classic crags in Spain, there is still quite a bit of choss (Chulilla and Siurana for example). Also, El Salto and El Portrero Chico in Mexico I can see being pretty loose at first. Especially El Portrero as there is still a lot of choss. I imagine others needed less cleaning (Ceuse). I imagine Rifle was pretty loose, though I haven't spent a lot of time there.

Anyone else have some insight?  Or am I out here developing a choss cliff?

Leonidio has a large number of fairly newly developed crags and the guidebooks and the websites stress that one should wear a helmet and be careful about rock breaking.

In the beginning, they were all underwater in shallow seas.

Doesn't the guide book for rifle start out with something to the effect of "Rifle is a chosspile..."

The limestone is around here started out really fucking chossy and has now become slightly less chossy, but still choss. Every few years or so something comes down. But just because it's choss doesn't mean it can't be good climbing once it's cleaned up a little bit.

I think an occasional choss fest can be pretty healthy for most climbers if done in moderation. When you hit bomber rock, it makes you appreciate it that much more. 

Up here in Jasper we have quite a few new or new-ish limestone crags. "See a hold you like? Take it with you!"

Thatcher State Park A 2 sided Valley with ridges along the upper 3rd,, with a whole lot of choss now open for whatchimightcallit?
 Bring  eye- protection,  hard hats,  Pry-bars  Ice tools & hammers.

a friend and I were working on a project at Mt. Potosi, NV because the 4 star routes at the cliff were wet. We traded burns climbing until we broke a hold and fell until he got the FA on his 3rd or 4th try.

The natural cycle for a limestone crag is: choss - pretty nice for a week or so - polished.

Avon Gorge in England is a lot of quarried limestone, and definitely fits the "choss - pretty nice for a week or so - polished" continuum (which goes across for grade too).  It's a crag with multi pitch routes that you can walk to from a decent size city (Bristol) and it still has loose parts.  Rock quality wildly varies, with some well travelled, mostly clean (and also polished) bits, but also chossy bands that never stabilize.  I'd never climb in the Gorge without a helmet (even if it wasn't full of poorly protected trad with ancient pitons)

Loose rock is the natural state of a cliff of any rock type. By what other force than mass wasting are cliffs even formed? Stronger rocks remain.

In addition to being loose breakable choss, some virgin limestone is very sharp. Some developers use tools to "dull" the hand-holds a bit.

Ken

kenr wrote: In addition to being loose breakable choss, some virgin limestone is very sharp...

One of our local limestone crags, Shredder Reef, is quite aptly named for just this reason. The climbs are all just 5.6-5.8, but you really, really, really don't want to fall unless you have a couple units typed, crossmatched, and ready on standby.

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

@JeffreyConstantine what are these random pictures of limestone crags meant to show us?

I think an occasional choss fest can be pretty healthy for most climbers if done in moderation. When you hit bomber rock, it makes you appreciate it that much more. 

Watch out Eli Poss.  You start down that road and before you know it, you'll be a choss pirate driving hours for destination piles like the Pawnee Grasslands.

Detrick Snyder wrote: Watch out Eli Poss.  You start down that road and before you know it, you'll be a choss pirate driving hours for destination piles like the Pawnee Grasslands.

Arrrrgggghhh ye matey! Wanna go climb some choss? The eastern plain looks like it's got some mighty fine adventure climbing. 

Just posting random shots of Limestone crags that I have actually climbed at, Foreign rock, USA lime is so so.

 This shot Epurpur Is USA LIME crust lol in the photo, in Cali, just getting started on it, its ok. 350m tall about a mile wide untouched till I got there. It will hold about 2000++++plus routes. What you are looking at is the first tier. Post a photo of this day crag you are working on Epurpur we all want to see it!!!! Don't have to say where it is.

350 feet tall. Great rock.

Epurpur where are you photos of this crag you have? We’re all waiting to be blown away at its awesomeness!!’