Red Rocks Grades

Friend and I are planning a trip out to RR in late March and I'm wondering how the grades stack up compared to the areas I've climbed in on the east coast. Mostly NC and the New and the Red. Those of you who have also climbed at some of these places, are the grades in red rocks as soft as the grades at the red?

Just trying to get a sense for the grading so I can target the sport routes I want to do appropriately (i.e. if red rocks 11c is new river gorge 10d I probably need to set my sights a little higher). I've also noticed that from the 2016 guidebook and mountain project that a lot of the climbs are a grade or two lower on MP i.e. a 12c in the book will be graded 12a on MP.

Warriors wrote: If you can climb "11c:" @ the New you could probably target well into the mid 12's in vegas imo. 

Very helpful - thanks for the feedback!

easily softer by a grade or 2 compared to the south. 

Its like anywhere...some routes seem easy for the grade, some hard for the grade.

Ross Peritore wrote: Its like anywhere...some routes seem easy for the grade, some hard for the grade.

It is exactly this!  If you come thinking the mid 12's are going to feel like 11c's you are going to have a disappointing trip! 

Tell me the 12b/c's that would be 11c in the NRG?  

What you are thinking about is a handful of incorrectly rated routes that people flock to and then proclaim that all of RR is soft (while avoiding all the other routes).
These routes are just notoriously miss/over-rated (Sweat Pain, the 12's at Panty, Casino, the "12" in the Black Corridor, Party Down and to a lesser extent: Fear&Loathing, KGB and Steep Thrills).

But while you are at it....consider:  Pain Check, Loki, Agent Orange Sonic Youth, Native Son, anything at Secret 13, Fresh Air, the tons of seldom climbed lines that are avoided because of hard grades....on the upper end of 12...consider Pablo Diablo...the list could go on.  Some might say The Gift is soft...usually right before (and even after...oddly) they fall at the top for the umpteenth time.

If you seek out the known softies, you might score your first "12a" onsight...but if you take the general idea the 12bRR=11cNRG  you are going to be disappointed.

The security (incut holds) offered on the trad lines...I'll agree makes most seem soft compared to less secure climbing areas.

I've climbed all over the South (sport) and have yet to notice a distinct difference.  

Bouldering grades are notoriously soft at Red Rocks. I found sport into the low 12's very soft, but primarily because the holds are absurdly obvious and there is almost never that many beta choices to make.

Yeah, I think the routes at RR often feel soft because they’re easy to read since they feel like a big outdoor gym with all of the jugs.  There’s also a lot of new development (esp at the Hills), which tends to be softer (much like Muir Valley vs say Military Wall).  Watch the age of routes...older classics will tend to feel much stiffer and more in line with other areas.

Kisses Don't Lie is a real soft 12a/b, go get on it
:)

Keep in mind also that if you're coming to red rocks exclusively to sport climb then you'll be missing out big time. It is THE destination for long, all day multipitch trad romps. If you're just looking to sport climb, there other destination areas for sport climbing both nearby as well as within the region. 

eli poss wrote: Keep in mind also that if you're coming to red rocks exclusively to sport climb then you'll be missing out big time. It is THE destination for long, all day multipitch trad romps. If you're just looking to sport climb, there other destination areas for sport climbing both nearby as well as within the region. 

Again with the arrogance Eli? Are you saying don't go to Red Rock if you just want to sport climb? Yet you say there are "other destination areas for sport climbing", therefore Red Rock indeed is a sport climbing destination.

A few years ago we spent 2 weeks in Red Rock - and exclusively sport climbed. Never once touched a piece of trad gear. Never once got more than 3 pitches off the ground. We had a blast and would do it again. We didn't miss out "big time" on a damned thing.

Marc801 C wrote:

Again with the arrogance Eli? Are you saying don't go to Red Rock if you just want to sport climb? Yet you say there are "other destination areas for sport climbing", therefore Red Rock indeed is a sport climbing destination.

A few years ago we spent 2 weeks in Red Rock - and exclusively sport climbed. Never once touched a piece of trad gear. Never once got more than 3 pitches off the ground. We had a blast and would do it again. We didn't miss out "big time" on a damned thing.

How is that arrogance? That's not what I'm saying. It looks like the OP trad climbs as well as sport climbing, and might enjoy some of the multipitch trad routes in addition to sport climbing at red rocks. After all, red rocks is a mecca for long multipich trad routes. It also offers much more and longer multipitch climbs than the OPs home region, the SE, and there are things he can get a red rocks that just don't exist in the south. 

If he's looking to sport climb exclusively, then there are other options nearby to explore as well, such as Mt Charleston and the Virgin River Gorge. 

Another possible reason for disparity between MP grades and guidebook grades is the fact that holds break on routes somewhat frequently.

In my opinion, MP grades seem more on par as it is typically graded by multiple people climbing from various places whereas grade books often give grades are often compared to local routes.

In terms of comparing RR to the new, I feel like it is very hard to compare them. I’ve climbed extensively at both and the sandstone is just not comparable. If you can consistently climb a grade in the NRG then I would get on the classics around that grade in RR.

In terms of Eli’s comment...RR definitely has some amazing sport climbing. No doubt. Yes it is known for long trad climbs, but that doesn’t mean the sport climbing isn’t amazing. It’s like saying the bouldering in the valley is trash just cause there’s big walls all around you.

eli poss wrote:

If he's looking to sport climb exclusively, then there are other options nearby to explore as well, such as Mt Charleston and the Virgin River Gorge. 

Have you climbed in the VRG? Unless you are warming up on mid .12, you will most likely have little fun in the post-apocalyptic hell scape that is the VRG. Also, VRG grades are not what one would call soft. 

After living in Vegas last winter, then climbing many other places (in western states) before returning to it this winter, I feel like Red Rock doesn't deserve the reputation it gets for being soft. I think it gets this reputation perhaps because of the style - many climbs, until you get to harder grades, have abundant hold options on great holds that are very obvious. While many lines would be considered "technical", I would say there are rarely any tricky sequences on anything under 5.12 and it requires more power and crimp strength than anything. However, move for move, I think Red Rock matches up pretty well to many other areas I've been in. Also, as mentioned above, I recently tried out Pain Check "5.12a" which certainly felt stiff/at the top of the grade compared to other areas I've been.

Also of note is that I lived in Las Vegas for 6 months last year, and spent most of the month of January this year there and haven't ever trad climbed there. The sport and bouldering are wonderful and worth a trip alone, but certainly if you have an interest in trad climbing then don't forget to bring the rack. It was only recently I've taken an interest in possibly picking up trad climbing and now I'm looking into the abundant large walls in the canyons and wondering why I didn't start trad climbing at Red Rock sooner.

Mike Mellenthin wrote: New Wave Hookers / Fuck This Sport / Maneater are all hard and it frustrates me because like man just let me send one of em please.

Red Rocks has A++++++ quality sport climbing, especially in the 5.12 range. How is this even a debate?

Cause Eli is a master troll. The subtleness of the ignorance put into his posts is really an art. 

Red rocks seems soft because people up graded all the harder things calling them sandbags and then added bolts to the things that were runout and scary. It has been robbed of its toughness in order to cater to the egos of the soft climbers who were shut down and intimidated by its grandeur. 

If this is your first visit to Red Rock, consider bringing your trad. gear.  While there is great sport climbing, the classic long trad. multipitch routes will (most likely) put a smile on your face.

Mike Mellenthin wrote: New Wave Hookers / Fuck This Sport / Maneater are all hard and it frustrates me because like man just let me send one of em please.

Red Rocks has A++++++ quality sport climbing, especially in the 5.12 range. How is this even a debate?

Haha!  I think Maneater is standard 12a.  But since F-this Sport is 12B, let's use that to compare to NRG 11C.  OP, start with that one, and let us know how it compares.

Ross Peritore wrote: Its like anywhere...some routes seem easy for the grade, some hard for the grade.

^^^this!

My personal experience is that the grades at Red Rocks are comparable to RRG. But also, the red desert sandstone is much softer, so popular routes get ground down and become harder as the time goes by. So people who tell you that they climbed there 15-20 years ago and everything was feather soft might be surprised, if they go back to the same routes. 

TL;DR My partner and I made the mistake of thinking Red Rocks would not be soft, and we felt that we did not pick challenging enough objectives. YMMV, etc.

Red Rocks face routes climb like a gym. I've no doubt this made the movement truly special before gyms became fun, exciting places with good setting--but its a tad dull now. Limestone and granite feel much harder at the same grade, if only because of route finding. That said, I still think there is a tendency in RR to inflate grades. I think you are more likely to find a softly grader climb at RR than the gunks, yosemite, my particular local crags, etc.

I visited RR for 10 days in January, and climbed mostly long mixed routes (Epinephrine, Unimpeachable groping, Inti Watana), with some single pitch trad lines and a day at the gallery thrown in.

Compared to Yosemite and the Gunks, as well as my local Enchanted Rock, I thought the trad routes were soft. Maybe like two letter grades. The route Atman is an example of this.
I will say the two indian creek-esque splittlers I hopped on felt more on grade that many face pitches, but then maybe I just suck at jamming.

For sport, I thought my local sport crag in Texas (Reimer's Ranch) was as good as the climbing at the gallery, and probably stiffer. If all RR single pitch sport is comparable to the gallery, then I would drive to a different area to sport climb. I climbed a The Grail (in Lime Kiln canyon? anyway, a 1 1/2 hours drive from LV) and thought those pitches were far more exciting, with more interesting sequences. And they were twice as tall, at least.

Which is my biggest grip: at the gallery, no pitch is more than 45 ft in length, and most are shorter than that. No big deal if you're local, but a bit of a bummer if you flew/drove half way across the country looking for a little thrill.