Multi-point Anchor using only a Single Rope?

So my goal is to figure out the best way to use a single rope to anchor to multiple points, in my case usually several smaller trees, with the Rappel end going straight down towards the direction of pull. What I'm not interested in, is setting up a Multi-point Anchor with a separate rope, and then simply clipping my actually Rap line to that.

Here's an absolutely horrific illustration of the start of the process. Forgive the child like drawing, it was on my phone with my finger, not on a laptop with a design program. I'll go back and make a nice version later, if I get this figured out.

The way I normally do this is to tie the equalized bundle into a figure 8 and clip all the Loops with a biner so the rap line can't slip out, but I imagine there is a better way that wouldn't need the biner. The other problem with this is the Rap line ends up coming out of the figure 8 starting away from the direction of pull, and then bending back down. Any better solutions out there, besides two separate lines? I like Bowlines, but I don't know how to tie that unless it's just around one point, not an equalized point.

Are you tying around trees? Are they 12+” diameter and healthy? (Yes I know overkill number, can’t remember a more accurate one). Just go around one tree.

If you're willing to incorporate a locker then this is easy. Tie an alpine butterfly on rap strand where you want your power point to be. Then tie a clove hitch where the big loop of slack is between the middle and right tree in your drawing. Clove this to the locker and clip to the alpine butterfly. Now with the other side of the clove hitch you will have a tail end that you can tie to the 3rd tree with a bowline.

Greg Miller wrote: Are you tying around trees? Are they 12+” diameter and healthy? (Yes I know overkill number, can’t remember a more accurate one). Just go around one tree.

Most climbers use the “5 Alive” rule of 5 inch in diameter and alive, but I think a friend of mine told me the AMGA guideline is that for a monolithic anchor (single point) the tree should be as big as the largest person that will be using it, which would probably be more around 12-18” for most climbers

Greg Miller wrote: Are you tying around trees? Are they 12+” diameter and healthy? (Yes I know overkill number, can’t remember a more accurate one). Just go around one tree.

I would rap off one, but they aren't your typical large tree, bomber single point. I'm planning on moving around a bit lowering and jugging, it's a simple step for peace of mind. 

eli poss wrote: If you're willing to incorporate a locker then this is easy. Tie an alpine butterfly on rap strand where you want your power point to be. Then tie a clove hitch where the big loop of slack is between the middle and right tree in your drawing. Clove this to the locker and clip to the alpine butterfly. Now with the other side of the clove hitch you will have a tail end that you can tie to the 3rd tree with a bowline.

I'd much rather get rid of all hardware if possible. I do like your idea though. But, from your description, it sounds like you miss capturing the middle tree. There would have to be a second clove hitch, between the middle and left tree as well. So, two total. Right? 

Any ideas out there that would require no carabiners?

Ma Ja wrote:

I'd much rather get rid of all hardware if possible. I do like your idea though. But, from your description, it sounds like you miss capturing the middle tree. There would have to be a second clove hitch, between the middle and left tree as well. So, two total. Right? 

Any ideas out there that would require no carabiners?

Why?

Ma Ja wrote:

I'd much rather get rid of all hardware if possible. I do like your idea though. But, from your description, it sounds like you miss capturing the middle tree. There would have to be a second clove hitch, between the middle and left tree as well. So, two total. Right? 

Any ideas out there that would require no carabiners?

sorry, yes forgot a step. Another option would be to sling the middle tree and clove hitch it before clove hitching down to the masterpoint. 

Use something static and not your rope for trees (or use multiple stands on same tree) to keep climbing rope cleaner.

Why not bring extra webbing If doing TR solo, not much gear needed anyways? 

stolo wrote: Use something static and not your rope for trees (or use multiple stands on same tree) to keep climbing rope cleaner.

Why not bring extra webbing If doing TR solo, not much gear needed anyways? 

I'm developing, so this is my protection while checking out the wall, before I set an anchor. I'm using a static line. Also, I prefer to carry in as little gear as possible because my pack is already incredibly heavy. Plus, the distance to the edge of the cliff from the natural anchors is so variable depending on where I'm at, this gives me more options. You'd just have to trust me on this one. Using just the rope is ideal. 

Dr Strangelove wrote:

Why?

Sometimes it stays up for several days and no hardware means the rain isn't going to beat up a good biner. A couple Rocklocks I had out for a bit had started to rust on the screw lock. Maybe it was just the little retainer split ring, but it seemed like a quick way to wearing it out if it was the actual screw lock. And, two less large lockers in the pack would be better. 

Ma Ja wrote:

Sometimes it stays up for several days and no hardware means the rain isn't going to beat up a good biner. 

Rain beating up perfectly good biners has always been a pet peeve of mine too!

I would use a knot tied in the style of a super 8 ( animatedknots.com/fig8loopd…).  If you sit and dissect it, you can tie it in a "follow through" style, so the loops can be formed around the trees. Also, (just got done playing with some rope) if you tie it like this, you can add a third loop for your third tree. I have never seen a knot tied like this before, so use at your discretion.
P.s. If you're leaving the setup outside for long periods, I would worry more about the rain and sun degrading the rope than a biner. Just my opinion.

It would be time consuming and inefficient, but if you truly wanted/needed to build this anchor without any biners, you could do it.

Replace the biner and clove hitches suggested by Eli with bowlines.

The butterfly knot and the now 2 suggested bowlines would form interlocking bights of rope.

It works, but again not the most efficient anchor scheme.

One bowline around all three trees. Simple and redundant. Yes, you'll have extension if one tree fails. You'll also have no "equalization" which is slightly less than you might have with any other method.

Using 2 trees would make this much simpler and efficient. Any reason why you can just use the 2 stronger trees?

Ma Ja wrote:

I'm developing, so this is my protection while checking out the wall, before I set an anchor. I'm using a static line. Also, I prefer to carry in as little gear as possible because my pack is already incredibly heavy. Plus, the distance to the edge of the cliff from the natural anchors is so variable depending on where I'm at, this gives me more options. You'd just have to trust me on this one. Using just the rope is ideal. 

why does the combination of you asking a very simple technical question with the comment above about developing make me really uneasy?

Ma Ja wrote:

I'm developing, so this is my protection while checking out the wall, before I set an anchor. I'm using a static line. Also, I prefer to carry in as little gear as possible because my pack is already incredibly heavy. Plus, the distance to the edge of the cliff from the natural anchors is so variable depending on where I'm at, this gives me more options. You'd just have to trust me on this one. Using just the rope is ideal. 

A locker weighs 2 oz and makes this setup significantly less complicated. Static line tied to 1 tree with a bowline or retraced figure-8, dealer's choice, a strip of webbing girth hitched to another strong tree. Tie and alpine butterfly in the static line where the 2 come together and connect it to the webbing with a water know and a locker to create a masterpoint. Rap on the static line as normal. This setup also allows you to shorter the webbing and adjust the alpine butterfly to rap potentially several adjacent lines using the same 2 anchor trees.

Also, don't leave your static rope out in the elements for several days when it will be rainy and variable weather. That is a great way to damage your rope from sun exposure, get it caked in dirt, mud, and sand, and have it potentially walk off on you. Also, it is just about the same as littering for anyone who comes across it while you are away. Pack in. Pack out. If your pack is too heavy for that and a couple of extra lockers and some webbing, hit the stairmaster.

Kevin Heinrich wrote: One bowline around all three trees. Simple and redundant. Yes, you'll have extension if one tree fails. You'll also have no "equalization" which is slightly less than you might have with any other method.

This would make an american death triangle i.e. extra forces will be generated inwards on the trees. 

slim wrote:

why does the combination of you asking a very simple technical question with the comment above about developing make me really uneasy?

Because you know nothing about me. I have a safe and easy method, I'm just looking for a simpler, easier method. If you have nothing helpful to add, why waste all of our time?

Ben Schuldt wrote:
Also, don't leave your static rope out in the elements for several days when it will be rainy and variable weather. That is a great way to damage your rope from sun exposure, get it caked in dirt, mud, and sand, and have it potentially walk off on you. Also, it is just about the same as littering for anyone who comes across it while you are away. Pack in. Pack out. If your pack is too heavy for that and a couple of extra lockers and some webbing, hit the stairmaster.

Thanks for the warning, but it's obvious you've never done what I'm doing, or seen a new crag get developed. Just to ease the shock if you ever come across one, there are lines all over and exposed to the elements for weeks, months, or more. Should you take a line down every time? Maybe, but good lord you're talking about a ton of work that isn't necessary. Get a good static line and you have nothing to worry about.