Scary Anchors, and How to Avoid Them

Wow, that is a disaster literally in the making and passing it off with a shrug is prima facie evidence of dangerous incompetence. If the riggers had been better at distributing the load, chances are that both strands would have looked like that.  

The top rope anchor that failed in the Gunks six years ago killed a young woman who was trying climbing for the first time and, naturally, trusted the people she was with to be safe.  Moreover, that anchor held for other participants before it failed, thereby inspiring a tragically misplaced sense of confidence.  Had there been a touch of hysteria there, this vibrant young woman would still be alive.  Climbers take all kinds of chances and embrace all kinds of risks, but top-roping isn't supposed to be one of them.

The subject has mostly been covered, but I'm going to repeat with a few extra details that may help with other situations.

The first point is to understand why people use static ropes to rig TR anchors.  When a rope is weighted, it will stretch by some percentage of the length involved in holding the load.  Dynamic ropes stretch much more than static ones, but static ropes stretch too; it's just that the percentage stretch is a much lower number.  Because of the percentage stretch phenomenon, a rope that is repeatedly weighted and unweighted, as happens to a top-rope anchor, is going to be continually elongating and contracting.  The longer the load bearing anchor rigging is, the greater the elongation and contraction in absolute terms.  The result is that the rope rubs back and forth over any edge it runs over.  This sawing action is more pronounced with dynamic ropes, because they stretch more under load, so people use static ropes to cut down on the potential for abrasion at the lip.

What you have in the picture is just about the worst-case scenario: rigging made with long strands of dynamic rope draped over an obviously abrasive edge, in other words doing just about everything wrong.

Ok, so if you are going to set up anchors that are remote from the power point, you typically want to use static rope (I'd say at least 10mm) for the job, but that often isn't enough, because the static rope will stretch too, more and more with increasing arm length of the rigging, so will still be subject to at least a little sawing action if there is a lip for it.  

The best solution, if it is available, is to add another anchor at or over the lip on the face below, with very short anchor arms that don't go over a sharp edge, that actually takes the entire TR load, with the long strands to the remote anchor rigged snug but still essentially as non- or little-load-bearing backups.  The point is to have the reliability of the remote anchor without continually stretching and contracting its anchor arms over the lip.  By the way, this is absolutely essential if the nature of the top-rope route could otherwise cause the anchor strands to move sideways back and forth over the edge.

Although extrapolating from a picture is fraught with error possibilities, it does look as if the horn mentioned by several posters would do the job for this set-up. Rig so the horn takes all the weight and the rope from the cams comes into play (immediately!) only if the horn anchor fails.

If you can't rig something at or over the lip to keep the long anchor arms from stretching and sawing, then padding the anchor arms is essential, and it is essential for lips far less obviously dangerous than this one.  There are all kinds of padding strategies.  Packs, rope bags, gardeners kneeling pads, old fire hose, commercial pads,  etc. etc.  Since the anchor won't be observable, the padding has to be arranged (and probably rigged itself) in such a way that it will stay in place under rope motions, remembering that the stretching and contracting of the anchor strands will tend to pull the padding over the lip until it no longer protects the rope.

Tradiban wrote: Oh the humanity!

Sure, the anchor sucks, sure the climbers attitude sucks, but it wasn't going to kill anyone. Has anyone here actually heard of a top rope anchor failing and killing someone?

Didn't think so.

If you aren't comfortable with an anchor you are going to climb on then go up there and fix it. Trust no one.

Yes.  At the Lake.

“Climbers take all kinds of chances and embrace all kinds of risks, but top-roping isn't supposed to be one of them.”
Exactly.

I once was on the top of of a cliff looking at some folks top rope. Wish I had a photo but it looked like someone had taken 2 well worn over the shoulder slings - untied them so there were no longer in a loop and tied them in the middle with a single water knot. One end was around the nearest tree, a 4" diameter sapling and the other end was the anhors masterpoint.  I looked to my buddy I'd been climbing with for over 20 years and said, "New climbers, don't know jack or shit'. When we got to the bottom there was a buddy who I had known for @30 years, and whom I had tied in with several times. He was climbing with 3 gumbies who were new. When I asked about the anchor, buddy said he'd set it up, and it was minimal as that's all the anchor material he had.

Disbelief.

Aim for the bushes.

Larry S wrote: Here's a relevant image for you.

For an unmonitored anchor, I usually like 3 pieces of gear, 2 bolts, or two large immovable objects (trees).  I'll use one immovable object if it's obviously strong and it's all you've got, but i prefer the redundancy.  I wouldn't object to the 7mm cord used where i climb - but wouldn't go smaller, and it must be redundant, no single point of failure in the cord.  But the TR crag i'm thinking of is glassy smooth, and i still use a rope tarp or two to pad the edge.  Sounds like on that rock people want much thicker cord for both less stretch (sawing action) and more durability.

Offtopic so sorry in advance- what book is this? I love reading different ropework/anchor books and am trying to build a collection. Thanks :)

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yes.  At the Lake.

“Climbers take all kinds of chances and embrace all kinds of risks, but top-roping isn't supposed to be one of them.”
Exactly.

Oh yeah? Details?

Matthew Massey wrote:

Offtopic so sorry in advance- what book is this? I love reading different ropework/anchor books and am trying to build a collection. Thanks :)

Looks like Rock Climbing: Mastering Basic Skills by Donahue and Luebben

Tradiban wrote:

Oh yeah? Details?

Was looking for the accident report.  It was a while ago...maybe 10 years or so.

Edit:http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199205802/Webbing-Anchor-Broke-Free-Inadequate-Protection-Wisconsin-Devils-Lake-State-Park
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13198708000/Fall-on-Rock-Top-Rope-Anchor-Pulled-Out-Wyoming-Blacktail-Butte

Re: Gunks top rope accident/death

It happened in May 2012
Stephanie Prezant was climbing on Easy Keyhole (5.5) at the Trapps when there was "an anchor failure"

Ted Pinson wrote:

Was looking for the accident report.  It was a while ago...maybe 10 years or so.

Edit: publications.americanalpine…

Anchor wasn't redundent, the anchor in question was.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: FFS seriously. The anchor could have been built better with padding over that edge but this is simply classic newbie errors at JTree under-estimating the abrasiveness of Quartz Monzonite.

So, it's not dangerous?  What's your point?  Yes, they underestimated the abrasiveness.  That's exactly the point of the thread.

Too thin a cord for the extension and/or way rougher rock than people expect happens every day there.

Yeah.  Again.  That's the point.

Core shotting an extending rope over an edge is very common in JTree, that's why the anchor was redundant.

This makes absolutely no sense.  If core shotting a rope is common for you or anyone else, you and those people for which it is common are idiots.  Redundancy isn't so you can haphazardly core shot your ropes whenever you want.

That this thread even exists is kinda sad.

That you came back after being booted off this site is sad.  You obviously weren't wanted, which is why your profile was deleted.  You're like the drunk, rude uncle that people politely ask not to come to Christmas next year, yet still show up because you have nothing better to do and because you still feel some sense of belonging... though no one else reciprocates.

 I mean, OP did a great job shaming his partners that were taking his newbie butt up stuff....:P

It's hard to shame someone that's left anonymous.  He didn't give names.  He tactfully expressed concerns because of the dangerous nature of what he found.  The danger has been corroborated by much more experienced climbers and by the most experienced (arguably) of all of us.  They were all gang top-roping the route.  At least some of them had the common sense to be alarmed by one leg of a two leg anchor being chewed through.  But I guess that just happens all the time, huh?  That might be the biggest chunk of bullshit I've ever heard on this site.  Congrats.

^^^ 2/10

Chuffer, get some experience at Josh and stop being so hysterical.

Tearing up some rope TRing at JT is a right of passage for most newbies. Its like shredding your tips on day 3...

Joe E wrote:

Looks like Rock Climbing: Mastering Basic Skills by Donahue and Luebben

Correct, it's a good book.

Tradiban wrote: Oh the humanity!

Sure, the anchor sucks, sure the climbers attitude sucks, but it wasn't going to kill anyone. Has anyone here actually heard of a top rope anchor failing and killing someone?

Didn't think so.

If you aren't comfortable with an anchor you are going to climb on then go up there and fix it. Trust no one.

Not killed but close enough 

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112217087/turkey-rocks-accident

I have two Petzl Protec rope protectors that I like. They wrap around the rope and have a squeezable clip on them to grab the rope, eliminating the need for a Prusik to hold something in place. They attach to a harness pretty easily and without much bulk. They cost $20 each.

I’ll also second the recommendation for getting some static rope. If your anchor material is stretchy then as it’s weighted and unweighted it will be grinding against a sharp edge. Getting a static rope solves this. Also, it makes it easy to create natural anchors, and from what I read is common in J Tree due to anchor setups being far back behind the wall.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

Not killed but close enough 

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112217087/turkey-rocks-accident

Not dead, doesn't count.

Tradiban wrote:

Not dead, doesn't count.

You sir have high standards

Since this is only my second day as a registered user, this is #1 of my 2 permitted posts until....I get unthrottled, I guess. Wish I could have been more involved throughout.

rgold wrote:...had there been a touch of hysteria there, this vibrant young woman would still be alive.  Climbers take all kinds of chances and embrace all kinds of risks, but top-roping isn't supposed to be one of them.

Yes. At least, I would hope so.

The subject has mostly been covered, but I'm going to repeat with a few extra details that may help with other situations.

The first point is to understand why people use static ropes to rig TR anchors.  When a rope is weighted, it will stretch by some percentage of the length involved in holding the load.  Dynamic ropes stretch much more than static ones, but static ropes stretch too; it's just that the percentage stretch is a much lower number.  Because of the percentage stretch phenomenon, a rope that is repeatedly weighted and unweighted, as happens to a top-rope anchor, is going to be continually elongating and contracting.  The longer the load bearing anchor rigging is, the greater the elongation and contraction in absolute terms.  The result is that the rope rubs back and forth over any edge it runs over.  This sawing action is more pronounced with dynamic ropes, because they stretch more under load, so people use static ropes to cut down on the potential for abrasion at the lip.

What you have in the picture is just about the worst-case scenario: rigging made with long strands of dynamic rope draped over an obviously abrasive edge, in other words doing just about everything wrong.

rgold - Thanks for taking the time to write this out. Makes total sense, and helps me understand the effects in play. I knew the difference between static and dynamic. I didn't really get the importance of one over the other in anchor-building. This is great teach/mentoring - you left out all the jargon and just explained the mechanics.

Larry S wrote:Here's a relevant image for you

Very relevant and useful image for something that could have been done in this situation. Thank you.

---

Thanks all for providing a (mostly) helpful conversation. I asked for productive advice, not continued criticism of the anchor in the original post and most of you have given me that. Much of what I know about climbing/anchoring has been learned while tied into a fixed anchor alongside one friend or another. Now that I'm getting into the more complex working-with-natural-features world of trad, I need to step up my critical abilities. Your combined experiences are invaluable.

Re: The failed anchor in 2016 at Turkey Rocks - https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112217087/turkey-rocks-accident - BigFeet wrote:
"...another reason not to disparage or make fun of those newbies who come to this forum with a "critique my anchor" post. Just having one person rethink their process, double/triple check, and/or ask someone on site to inspect... can possibly make a difference for someone's health."

I definitely didn't start this thread to shame anyone. Never once said "Hey, look at this thing!" I came seeking advice and critique on the anchor, not the climbers. Bad anchor? Yep. Bad anchor set by bad people? Nope. Can everyone here honestly say they've never set a shitty anchor?

I dunno guys, I'm not embarrassed by this thread. I'm admitting my own ignorance on the subject, experienced a problem on the rock, and am asking for advice. I'm looking at this from a gear/climbing nerd perspective (something went wrong. how can I make it better), not from a cowboy perspective (welp. didn't die!). Not sure why death is the critical indicator of failure. Even if no other climber has been killed on TR, I don't want to be the first - death aside - I also like my legs and ribs where they are.

Given the discussion about statistics on deaths, this question seems relevant:  What is the threshold at which I or my partner should take action to improve our anchor rigging practices?

Once a death occurs?  Or once someone is disabled for life?  Or once someone seeks professional medical attention?  Or once damage is observed (a.k.a., partial failure) which significantly eats away at the originally intended margin of safety?  Or once my partner points out an easy / appropriate way to improve my anchor’s integrity? Or?

And I’ll add a caution against promoting a view that it is “just a top-rope anchor” afterall.  Those have unique “needs” compared to the usual multi-pitch anchor.

Edit:  Hang in there, Lee.  With posts like yours, you’ll soon get to a more appropriate post-rate threshold.

REI sells this static rope by the foot, to be used in just such a situation 

https://www.rei.com/product/472071/pmi-max-wear-sport-11mm-static-rope