Re-educate me on softshells

My knowledge is pretty outdated.

My "current" jacket is about 15 years old Moonstone. Heavy, uninsulated, and honestly pretty decent. It's totally worn out. I had the rare opportunity to check out a store the other day, it made my head spin.

Everything is much much lighter than I remember. More akin to a windbreaker. Back when I had new stuff, mid weight Schoeller was pretty much the bees knees. It's so different than what I remember, softshell might not mean what I think it means anymore.

So, for someone without access to a local shop, what am I looking for? 70% use will be AT skiing uphill, and other aerobic winter adventure. The other 30% will be ice climbing. I'm also hoping to get 10+ years out of the new garment.

Double bonus if it's something I can get from Cabela's or STP (holiday gift cards) but I'm not holding my breath on that.

Schoeller and similar fabrics are still around. The Arc'teryx Gamma LT Hoody is very similar to that style of jacket, and you could easily get 10 years out of it. Another popular option is the Outdoor Research Ferrosi. The Black Diamond Alpine Start is an 8 ounce Schoeller jacket, and it lies right between the lightest windshells and these jackets.

In general, but not always, heavier jackets will provide more protection and durability.

As you have noticed, lots of folks have gone to lighter weight windshell type jackets and "active insulation" pieces.

The lightest weight options are windshells, and the popular ones include the Patagonia Houdini and Arc'teryx Squamish. Expect these to weigh 4-6 ounces. They do keep the wind off, and they can make any insulation underneath warmer than either piece on their own. Any regular use will make these probably not last 10 years, but you can find them cheaper than other options. Patagonia has a new version of the Houdini coming out in Spring 2019 called the Houdini Air that I am interested in.

A bit heavier windshell-type jacket might last 10 years. These include the Arc'teryx Psiphon FL Hoody and the Mountain Equipment Squall. Both are very highly regarded. This style jacket weighs around 10-12 ounces. They will do everything the lighter windshells do, but they will be much more durable and usually have more features like pockets. Depending on use, I think you could get 10 years out of one of these, and I could recommend something like the Psiphon FL as something that would make 90% of climbers happy.

Many folks have switched to active insulation pieces. They basically combine an air permeable windshell will a thin layer of air permeable insulation that allows some airflow through it when you don't have anything else on top. Then they get warmer as a sort of puffy if you throw another jacket over them. They include the Patagonia Nano Air Light Hoody, Nano Air Light Hybrid Hoody, Mountain Equipment Kinesis, and Arc'teryx Proton series. These jackets weigh 10-15 ounces. Despite their marketing, most of these pieces are usually too warm for skiing uphill or even hiking uphill carrying anything. If it's really cold, the Nano Air Light, Kinesis, or Proton FL (coming in Spring 2019) might work for you. None of these is super durable, and I wouldn't expect them to last 10 years. But the Arc' Proton LT is the most durable of these. I have done some funny layering by wearing a Nano Air Light Hoody alone with no baselayer as a sort of all in one top, and that has worked well for me in certain conditions, though I wished it was longer for less draftiness at my belly.

Another option is a burlier softshell with an integrated waffle pattern inside for a bit of warmth. This style includes the Arc'teryx Acto FL and Patagonia R1 Techface Hoody. These jackets weigh 14-16 ounces. I think this style jacket does everything the newer active insulation pieces are meant to do, but they do it better. They are much more durable, not as warm, and they breathe better. The small amount of insulation they do have won't really pack out like the active insulation pieces above. They still might be too warm for skinning uphill depending on temps and personal comfort, and you do pay the price in a bit of extra weight. These jackets will last 10+ years.

There are hybrid soft/hard shells out there also. One is the Arc'teryx Procline Comp. It combines basically waterproof Windstopper at the hood, shoulders, and chest with softshell under the arms and at the back for breathability. I have no experience with these pieces, but those who like them seem to really like them.

No idea what is available at STP or Cabelas

I own a North Face and Frogg Toggs, they're super

Brian, thanks for the excellent explanation. It really gives me a great place to start.

Listen to Brian. He's offered a great summary of the current systems and some options for each.

I can add some personal experience with each, noting that I tend to run cold and durability is usually a key consideration for me:

Soft shell is still a thing, lasts a long time, and is durable. I tend to get uninsulated so that I can layer as desired. I tend to use them most for scrappy rock or winter mixed where things like arm bars, shoulder scums, etc. will see some use. They do far better at surviving this abuse than other systems.

I use wind shell style (ex. Patagonia Houdini) for many things. In summer it might be the only layer on top of a base layer to cut wind. In summer alpine or spring/fall in the desert with pretty variable temperatures on any given day, I use it with a base t shirt, sun shirt, and light puffy. Add a hat and/or buff and the wind stopping power can keep things pretty warm when needed but can be stripped down to just the t shirt and wind breaker, etc.

Even running cold as I do, I agree the active insulation is a bit warm except on colder days (high of 10F maybe) or wearing very little under it. I can attest that the Arcteryx Proton is reasonably durable relative to other options, but does still pack out. I'll use it for the uphill on cold ski touring days (particularly if going <1000ft/hour). I'll also use it for pure ice climbs (minimal contact with rock) in cold conditions or lines that aren't too strenuous for me (so that I'm less likely to overheat). When it's cold, I think they do alright with the understanding that you'll sweat a bit, cool off when you stop, but won't stop for so long that a little sweat causes a problem (ex. short multipitch ice as noted above, or slow skinning). The Proton plus a shell is nice for the downhill while skiing--warm enough, but not too warm if the skiing is strenuous.

I opted against the R1 Techface and it's similar predecessors due to breathability. I do use the regular R1 most of the time in fall and winter. It breathes well enough, but not great enough to want to decrease breathability by adding a face to it. The front zip vents to the navel, the tunnel sits well below pants waist line to seamlessly block draft, and the balaclava hood plus thumb loops offer additional options for warming up/cooling off. If I need what the Techface version might offer, I can usually get the wind stopping I need with a Houdini plus the R1. It's also very durable, and when my thumb loops blew out, true to their word, Patagonia replaced them for free to prevent the piece from getting recycled or trashed.

I have the Procline jacket Brian mentioned. I like it fine. I'm in Utah most of the time, so I tend to use it more like a hard shell since I very rarely need a true hard shell here. (I bring a real hard shell when going somewhere like the Cascades where there's serious rain.) I don't think there's really enough soft shell to breathe well enough for much of anything uphill, but the hard shell panels seem to increase durability under pack straps and are also nice for staying a bit drier from deep snow or dripping ice. So, for drier climes they work nicely, but I've not been blown away by them. A real hard shell comes out in wetter climates, and a regular soft shell comes out when I'll be working hard on the up.

I also know nothing about STP and Cabelas.

Good post, thanks to all

We have both Cabela's and STP brick and mortar stores here. Cabela's may not have the exact brand/model, but, they have equivalent products. I haven't bought clothes there, but I did go through everywhere when I was shopping for my first layers last year.

STP, if the brand has a new version coming out, and last year's is good enough, you may find a really great deal. You have to jump on it, if what you want comes up. Their stuff is only what they have, and changes all the time, far as I can tell.

Apart from fit, how the hood worked, and a decent amount of zip, were the main things for and against most of these. I poached off of ski racks, and had good luck with used gear, too. 

Good luck! I had a whole team dressing me, lol!

Best, Helen

Mountain equipmemt squall jacket

Patagonia recently came out with mid layer/soft shell hybrid(r1 or r2 techface) which provides installation and wind and light rain protection.

I honestly can't see why anyone buys Arc'terribleprice-x. Even at the outlet store in Castle Rock I was looking at $500 hardshells down from $750. Not a whole lot of softshells, so hard to compare prices. I have only owned North Face softshell jackets and for me the price point is perfect. I can generally find them at Wilderness Exchange for under $100. Schoeller is still cool with me. I have no issues with that fabric and don't need a pricier new fabric. Both of my jackets are still kicking. You do need to learn how to clamp down the old zipper runners to bring the gap back into spec when they stop working. This gives new life to all of your jackets, gaiters, packs, etc.

s.price wrote: Check out Voormi as well.

Is that like vindaloo? Mmmmm, vindaloo.

I have come to realize that having an thick, insulated softshell and a very thin one are great. The thin one comes in handy for cardio stuff in the snow like cross country skiing and running if you are into that, bleccch. The thicker one is for climbing, doing moderately fast hikes, medium to low activity stuff. The down jacket comes out when you are idle, sitting around eating, etc. Daily, I wear the thin one. All I need is two hand pockets and a left side breast pocket for my phone. Draw strings to bring in the waist when it gets windy are a plus and pretty standard. Oh, and for me a hood is a must. My thin one lacks that, but it's not as important on that one. 

My setup is a Rab Torque soft shell on top of a Rab Paradox pull over. 

For anyone wondering, I own both an Patagonia R1 Hoody and TechFace Hoody.  The regular R1 is way warmer than the newer TechFace piece.  The fleece gird squares on the regular R1 are a lot more "fleecy" and appear to have more loft.  The TechFace's hood is helmet-compatible and not a SCUBA hood like on the conventional R1.  Way different cut as the regular R1 is made to be layered and the TechFace appears to be made more with outerwear in mind.  To me, the TechFace feels very breathable and airy compared to the regular R1 Hoody.