Belaying a climber on ice or mixed?

Some very kind people shepherded me out for a first shot at ice last winter.

And I greatly enjoyed it!

Which means it's time to do more homework. I don't expect to be belaying, and I will be with very capable people, but I still would like to learn.

What changes when you are belaying, for ice/mixed? What would you want a beginner to know? Tips?

Again, this is theory, first to not be as clueless, but primarily because I am always seeking to be ahead of the curve for knowledge, at least, as I don't have a bunch of years to rack up experience.

Best, and thanks! Helen

Old lady H wrote: What would you want a beginner to know? T

Try to avoid letting large chunks of ice hit you on the head.

FrankPS wrote:

Try to avoid letting large chunks of ice hit you on the head.

THAT'S what I was doing wrong!

Don't drop them. Make sure you can actually belay properly if your using big gloves or mitts. Personally, I rather have slack out on ice than be short roped.

The only job of the belayer while ice climbing is to stop the fall as soon as possible. No soft catches. Be able to move out of the way of falling ice while doing it. Don’t look up while catching your climber if they are climbing leashless.

Assuming you're toproping, don't be afraid to look for a way to set an anchor for you back away from the ice, and belay from well out of harm's way. No need to be right beneath the ice unless there's nowhere else to stand.

Greg Miller wrote: Assuming you're toproping, don't be afraid to look for a way to set an anchor for you back away from the ice, and belay from well out of harm's way. No need to be right beneath the ice unless there's nowhere else to stand.

I would not anchor the belayer at all - they need to move around - unless they are in a fundamentally dangerous spot.  And I'm in the "No slack" camp. Stop the fall ASAP. Clipping screws is generallly a non-rushed process, so short roping is not an issue IME. (I realize some folks like to challenge their belayer by pulling up 8 ft of rope on 0.1 seconds; they may have a different take on this.) Another point re. beware of falling ice - don't hang around, chit-chat, or eat lunch at the base where you could get whacked. That sounds obvious, but in newbie group situations, I've seen some outrageously clueless behavior.

Thanks, guys!

Frank, I have friends who were hit, all got through okay. But, I know some of Idaho's alpinist FAs. They all have stories. One, is missing toes.  

In my usual talented manner, I learned in my first half year rock climbing, that even tiny ice really smarts when the wind blows it off the top of the cliff, into your face, lol! I quickly figured out to tip my helmet into the wind to avoid the strikes. 

So, stopping any fall ASAP, I get. I also get not wanting to be hit by ice, tools, anything. I can see that being anchored is a plus....and a minus. Any more ideas on that?

One of you mentioned "if on top rope" to anchor well back. Why specify top rope? Are there considerations for ice screws, beyond rope drag, if you have a leader on the (ooooo! Literally!!) sharp end? Are there directions ice screws shouldn't be pulled, or are they multidirectional as gear can get (this noobs impression)?

Thanks, gents! I doubt I'll be thrown on belay, but if I am, I will be with very good people, and paying close attention.

Best, Helen

If you're belaying a leader, staying out of harm's way is arguably even more important (because they are likely to have to clean up bad ice from time to time to place good pro).  

However, belaying from some distance away from the wall is not a good idea when belaying a leader, because the direction of pull from you (belayer) to the first screw is likely to be too close to horizontal, and will likely pull you off your feet and into the base of the wall in case of a fall (just like it would when rock climbing).
 
This makes choosing the right place to belay a leader on ice a difficult problem.  Ideally, you will be able to find either a cave between icicles, or a a protected spot below an overhang, or next to a vertical section below a rebound slope, right at the base of the line, and you'll belay from there.  Otherwise, I think the best thing to do is often to move off the fall line sideways along the base of the wall until far enough, and perhaps put in a screw to anchor the belayer so he/she does not get pulled off his/her feet in case of a fall.  If you're on the ground (or a large ledge), you could anchor to that screw a bit long to allow some freedom of movement in case falling ice reaches that far to the side (rebounds... see below).

The side-to-side-belay strategy, BTW, is often your only option on long multi-pitch routes (if there are no caves): lead straight up, but at the end of the pitch traverse right 15-20 ft and set belay.  Next pitch starts with traverse left back into the line and ends with traverse left to set belay... etc, making a nice zig-zag.  Example below (Hydrophobia, in the Waiparous valley, Alberta, Canada).

Also pay attention to lower angle sections of the line above, which can cause falling ice to rebound violently at weird angles...  you should be able to keep safely out of rebound areas by inspecting the terrain above you.

Whatever you do, don't take the risk of falling ice lightly, especially on less traveled ice routes, or in very cold weather (brittle ice).  Large pieces of falling ice can do serious damage.

Rope management/awareness is extra important. Quite often you will be belaying standing on ice, which means you will be wearing crampons, and stepping on a rope with crampons is no good. Also get used to moving around in crampons, don’t want to catch your points on your pants and trip and fall while belaying(or when anyone is watching you)

Thanks, all!

I don't take any of this lightly, including the approaches. That, by itself, could be a go, no go decision, unfortunately.

However, last year, with an icy narrow path in, my guy put the crampons on me early, and had me practice. Walking was fine, I got the hang of it easily. On the way out, I started to go down, though, and just relaxed, as it was going to be a mere butt plop.

He, however, was right behind me, and tried to keep me from going down. Looked like slapstick, briefly, and I took him out too. No harm, but, I also know, now, keep your distance from people with pointy crap all over them, even "just" walking. Dunno what he was thinking, except "don't let the old lady crash", lol! At least I wasn't carrying ice tools on my pack. 

Rope management, what about icy, perhaps skinny, ropes? Is this the one time everyone sticks with an ATC type device? Would you be looking to add some friction? I've been using the two carabineer thing in the gym lately, works super with my heavier partner (only about 50 pounds, but very little friction in the system).g

Thread drift question: how did you learn to do belays with two ropes? Just do it? Again, I don't expect ​that, but I've had a lot of "not for beginners" stuff come up, right from day one as a climber.

Best, Helen

Gunkiemike wrote:

I would not anchor the belayer at all - they need to move around - unless they are in a fundamentally dangerous spot.  And I'm in the "No slack" camp. Stop the fall ASAP. Clipping screws is generallly a non-rushed process, so short roping is not an issue IME. (I realize some folks like to challenge their belayer by pulling up 8 ft of rope on 0.1 seconds; they may have a different take on this.) Another point re. beware of falling ice - don't hang around, chit-chat, or eat lunch at the base where you could get whacked. That sounds obvious, but in newbie group situations, I've seen some outrageously clueless behavior.

In general....yes. I think it should be noted that there are some instances where anchoring makes sense, like for some mixed and a lot of dry tooling. I'm talking situations where the gear is bombed to fall on, or the rock is steep enough that the belayer could get a face full of crampons, especially if you are lighter than your climber.  For pure ice though there may be occasional situations where anchoring makes sense, but generally not. As always, use your brain and assess the situation!!!!!

Bumping this thread! I'm headed to Bozeman next month, yay! My partner is meeting me there, he is experienced, but I like to know about stuff anyway.

So, in terms of anchoring the belayer, me, would you belay off an anchor for ice? Leave the belayer safe from being lifted? And, are ice screws good in any direction of pull?

I'm also curious if ATC is all you'd use on ice, and what you do about gloves. A thin pair for belaying?

Anything else not already in here?

Thanks! Helen

1. Same anchoring principles as rock.  If it's a multipitch or an exposed belay spot anchor out of the way of icefall.

2.  The belayer should not be getting lifted ice climbing.  The leader must not fall (Really)

3. Ice screws are good in all directions

4. An atc is sufficient, if you're on really thin ropes adjust accordingly.  (if i'm on a regular i'll sometimes throw a bite around my hand as ice climbing is usually slow)

5. THICK gloves you won't be moving belaying, thin for climbing.

Have fun!

Ryan M Moore wrote: The only job of the belayer while ice climbing is to stop the fall as soon as possible. No soft catches. Be able to move out of the way of falling ice while doing it. Don’t look up while catching your climber if they are climbing leashless.

I'm not experienced on ice, so this is more of a question than a call out, but it seems like youd definitely want a soft catch, with minimal slack, so that the fall force on the last piece of pro is minimized. Also, I'm not trying to get spiked with crampons on. But, I would imagine if you're climbing something low angle/slabby youd want to be stopped asap so you dont get ankled in your crampon. Seems like the terrain is the biggest factor.

greggrylls wrote: 1. Same anchoring principles as rock.  If it's a multipitch or an exposed belay spot anchor out of the way of icefall.

2.  The belayer should not be getting lifted ice climbing.  The leader must not fall (Really)

3. Ice screws are good in all directions

4. An atc is sufficient, if you're on really thin ropes adjust accordingly.  (if i'm on a regular i'll sometimes throw a bite around my hand as ice climbing is usually slow)

5. THICK gloves you won't be moving belaying, thin for climbing.

Have fun!

1. Would you consider belaying off the anchor, or is that even possible?

2. Yeah....but that's what the belayer and rope are there for. The unexpected oops.

3. Good to know!

4. Would you consider adding friction with an extra biner? He will be leading, not on top rope, but I'd be lowering, eventually, and it's possible it's a skinny rope, slick, and maybe less friction overall, compared to rock climbing???

5. It's the ice fest, so I can probably try out some gloves, apart from the five or six pairs I bought for the first trip. Small hands aren't too hard to find gloves for, but small hands and stubby fingers is tougher.

Best, Helen

Ma Ja wrote:

I'm not experienced on ice, so this is more of a question than a call out, but it seems like youd definitely want a soft catch, with minimal slack, so that the fall force on the last piece of pro is minimized. Also, I'm not trying to get spiked with crampons on. But, I would imagine if you're climbing something low angle/slabby youd want to be stopped asap so you dont get ankled in your crampon. Seems like the terrain is the biggest factor.

Ma Ja, if the belayer is in the air, that's an additional set of pointy things flapping around, too. Even walking around takes a technique and care not to get sliced.

But? Mixed climbing....hmmmm.

Best, Helen

greggrylls wrote: 3. Ice screws are good in all directions

?

What is your question Paul?  

greggrylls wrote: What is your question Paul?  

What about straight up, if a belayer is lifted, and the thing is at their feet?

Yep, some nuances placing them on lead but for your purposes yes equally good in all directions and ice screws are strong!