North Face Summit Series

Not sure if this is a faux pas but I rarely see any TNF gear mentioned on here. Is the Summit Series gear really that bad? I figured if it's good enough for Conrad Anker it might not be so terrible but what do you guys think?

It looks really nice to me, but with TNF you never know if the extra money is just for their marketing budget or if it actually went into the gear.

All of the TNF summit series stuff that I've seen looks pretty good.  If it's on sale, go for it!

Mike K wrote: I figured if it's good enough for Conrad Anker it might not be so terrible but what do you guys think?

I personally don't know how much input Conrad has when it comes to designing their Summit Series line, it could be a lot, or it could be nothing. Just keep this in mind, Conrad is a sponsored North Face athlete, so it's less a matter of "it's good enough for Conrad," and more a matter of Conrad is under contractual obligation to be seen and photographed wearing their apparel. For this reason I try not to let sponsored athletes bias my apparel choices.  

It might be fine, it might even be great. It's not cheap, and for the same money you could get gear from companies who have consistently put out great stuff for years. Seems wise to look elsewhere whenever you can. If TNF clearly produces something you want that nobody else makes, then sure give it a shot. I wanted a center zip expedition sleeping bag, not many out there besides the Inferno. 

To me TNF seems to focus more on mass market fashion. I emailed them recently asking them for the down fill weight of their new belay jacket, they replied that it had "800 down fill weight." I tried to explain to them the difference between fill power and fill weight, haven't heard back. 

I've had similarly frustrating experiences dealing with customer service at Eddie Bauer. I just couldn't get anyone who knew WTF they were talking about. They make some nice things, they're just not truly invested in their mountaineering line.

I've been frustrated by Patagonia, Arc, Mountain Hardwear etc.. too but never quite the same way - you're not dealing with people who are totally clueless. 

jdejace wrote: It might be fine, it might even be great. It's not cheap, and for the same money you could get gear from companies who have consistently put out great stuff for years. Seems wise to look elsewhere whenever you can. If TNF clearly produces something you want that nobody else makes, then sure give it a shot. I wanted a center zip expedition sleeping bag, not many out there besides the Inferno.

To me TNF seems to focus more on mass market fashion. I emailed them recently asking them for the down fill weight of their new belay jacket, they replied that it had "800 down fill weight." I tried to explain to them the difference between fill power and fill weight, haven't heard back.

I've had similarly frustrating experiences dealing with customer service at Eddie Bauer. I just couldn't get anyone who knew WTF they were talking about. They make some nice things, they're just not truly invested in their mountaineering line.

I've been frustrated by Patagonia, Arc, Mountain Hardwear etc.. too but never quite the same way - you're not dealing with people who are totally clueless. 

Yeah I was trying to find information about fill weight on the L6 belay parka with no luck. there are some decent deals on their belay parkas on eBay and but it seems like everyone recommends other jackets 

Dallin Carey wrote:

I personally don't know how much input Conrad has when it comes to designing their Summit Series line, it could be a lot, or it could be nothing. Just keep this in mind, Conrad is a sponsored North Face athlete, so it's less a matter of "it's good enough for Conrad," and more a matter of Conrad is under contractual obligation to be seen and photographed wearing their apparel.

I tend to look at what they use for their expeditions, no chance is someone on the cutting edge going to be wearing stuff because they have to when it could mean life or death. For this reason you if you pay close attention it's not uncommon to find prototype gear.

 For this reason I try not to let sponsored athletes bias my apparel choices.  

I think it really depends on the athlete, this isn't as applicable for clothing but for gear the pro's really don't have time to be pissing about with anything but exactly what they want Killian Jornet's use of an Ice Rock axe on most of his alpine stuff despite the fact he's sponsored by petzl. I have also seen Honnold using Edelrids 19g draws as well.

Mike K wrote:

Yeah I was trying to find information about fill weight on the L6 belay parka with no luck. there are some decent deals on their belay parkas on eBay and but it seems like everyone recommends other jackets 

That's kind of the issue when buying from TNF. Not many people use it, not much info out there, their customer service is not that helpful. You might be getting something top notch but why reinvent the wheel when there are proven alternatives out there ya know? If you want to take a chance and be a gear tester, I'm sure we'd all appreciate it :-) Otherwise my best advice is to buy a proven belay jacket.  

I've had some North Face clothing and a pack over the years. I've been pleased with their products. but haven't bought anything from them for several years.

Dallin Carey wrote:

I personally don't know how much input Conrad has when it comes to designing their Summit Series line, it could be a lot, or it could be nothing. Just keep this in mind, Conrad is a sponsored North Face athlete, so it's less a matter of "it's good enough for Conrad," and more a matter of Conrad is under contractual obligation to be seen and photographed wearing their apparel. For this reason I try not to let sponsored athletes bias my apparel choices.  

My good friend’s wife works in development at VF (the parent company of TNF), and she says the athletes (Anker included) have a ton of feedback in the R&D / design process.  Not all their feedback on prototyping goes to the final products that go to market (eg they want something superlight but it’s deemed impractical for sales).   In general I think sponsored athlete affiliation is a poor lense through which to make purchase decisions, but the athlete branding isn’t just for optics.

t.farrell wrote:

He and many other athletes could likely get a similar offer from any other major outdoor eqpt manufacturer.

I doubt many brands could match an offer by TNF, they have really deep pockets for somebody they really want, and could put together a package nobody could touch, like expeditions, film crews, things that build both the athlete and the brand. 

Mike K wrote:

Yeah I was trying to find information about fill weight on the L6 belay parka with no luck. there are some decent deals on their belay parkas on eBay and but it seems like everyone recommends other jackets 

Summit L6 Down Belay Parka → 800 fill goose down
I have a coat of theirs, its ok. I don't think it's an elite product.

I have several of their pieces and have always been happy.  Their inferno bags are nice.  Cats meow bags have always been a solid synthetic bag.  The ventrix line is mice too and worth looking at.  Sure the proton by arc is nicer-but when you find the ventrix on sale for 40 or 50 percent off that’s one of those pieces not worth the extra money ( for me atleast)
I use a lot of their gear when snowmobiling or atv riding as well.  This is Partially cause the gear is made of heavier fabrics and more durable and partially because I don’t want to be wearing a $700 arc’teryx rain jacket through mud, rubbing against mechanical parts etc.    the north face gear really hasn’t really ever let me down.  

Lastly-their duffels are nearly the best for the price. Patagonia black hole duffels don’t seem to last as long in my experience.  I’ve used their duffels for everything but especially boat centered camping and I’ve trashed them. Keep going strong.  Lash them on top of atvs and take them camping too into distant areas with very cold temps and they never have cracked and zippers remained strong. null

Their Mountain 35 tent is a bomber 4S tent for half the price of a Hilleberg, and I've been toasty in their L6 jacket sitting still at -20F/-30C.

t.farrell wrote:

Almost all of the major outdoor apparel manufacturers are owned by either private equity firms or major retail conglomerates. 

But my point is that I don’t believe people partner with brands entirely for money. I doubt Ueli would have partnered if they didn’t develop an entire product line around his style. Similarly with Kilian and Salomon...any company can throw money at them, but I’d argue there’s more to it than just $.

I dont know who owns them but I know that TNF is making crazy amounts of cash. I see more TNF clothing than I see Nike shoes, I mean when I go to my daughters soccer games in cold weather, literally half of the parents are wearing their stuff. I know one guy with an Arcteryx jacket and nobody I know in the real world has any idea who Mountain Hardwear or Rab is. TNF are just orders of magnitude bigger than most of the providers of technical climbers clothing. 

And I understand what you are saying but Im not going to claim I can get inside the head of a professional athlete I have never met. Call me cynical but money talks, even to people with integrity.

We are getting pretty far OT, the Summit Stuff looks sweet, I dont need anything but if I did I would certainly consider it if I saw it on sale. 

Doug Chism wrote:

I dont know who owns them but I know that TNF is making crazy amounts of cash. I see more TNF clothing than I see Nike shoes, I mean when I go to my daughters soccer games in cold weather, literally half of the parents are wearing their stuff. I know one guy with an Arcteryx jacket and nobody I know in the real world has any idea who Mountain Hardwear or Rab is. TNF are just orders of magnitude bigger than most of the providers of technical climbers clothing. 

And I understand what you are saying but Im not going to claim I can get inside the head of a professional athlete I have never met. Call me cynical but money talks, even to people with integrity.

We are getting pretty far OT, the Summit Stuff looks sweet, I dont need anything but if I did I would certainly consider it if I saw it on sale. 

We are a bit off topic-but I agree that the north face is huge.  The kids gear is among the best you can buy for cold climates-definitely better than Columbia etc  

Also I really like their summit gear mitts.  I’ve used their Himalayan mitts repeatedly as well as the g5 mitts  and love them.  And the mountain 25 tent is bomber. 

There's a reason TNF bagged Conrad, Hilaree Nelson, Jimmy Chin, Renan Ozturk, David Llama, Anna Pfaff and finally, of course, Alex Honnold.  Besides for Will Gadd, Steve House and Colin Haley, TNF athletes are some of the biggest names in climbing because TNF has the dough to construct and deliver irresistible contracts that keep these men & woman on expeditions climbing, making films and lecturing for a healthy and well-deserved living.  All the black Denali fleece jackets 80% of America wears goes to snagging the next big thing.  

I, too, had a shitty experience with their customer service over a question I had about one of their mountaineering packs. TNF's reply was so generic they probably just copied & pasted a paragraph from their website, which didn't even remotely answer the question.  I took a gamble, ordered the Cobra 52 a couple years ago & was immediately disappointed in it's craftsmanship and fit.  I sent it back the next day.

TNF had their day.  They made some great stuff in the 1990's, but ever since their concentration went from remote alpine routes to college campuses, they lost their edge.  When they redesigned and relaunched their Summit Series a few season ago, it was a futile attempt to get back in the game.  It's almost like they keep the Summit Series line alive so they can still "claim" mountain cred against brands like Arc'teryx, Patagonia, Rab, etc. Cool photography from Chin to have on their website.

I work in product at TNF. My thoughts and actions do not necessarily reflect the brand or it's views. I am far from a mouthpiece for the brand.
 
I won't be able to tell you anything that isn't public knowledge, but I will be able to give you a pretty unbiased opinion. I have competitive product in my closet and use it all the time, even in the categories I work in. So if it's something we make, but there is a much better option out there I'll use that as I regularly use that. Also on the topic of VF, they are very hands off as "owners" of companies, people from Vans will say the same thing.

TLDR; Even though I work for the brand there is still stuff I'd buy full retail if I did not and worked for someone else, Summit series is on a good trajectory. 

Conrad does have input on stuff but let's be honest, Conrad is not at the cutting edge of alpinism anymore. Why do you think he got David Llama on the TNF athlete team? Conrad is still a great guy to work with since he is still so plugged into the direction of alpinism, AND understands that we need to make pieces commercially. On the internal leadership side our new general manager of mountain sports is a legit dude who gets after it and understands the balance between 100% athlete product and making something commercial.

As most of you probably know Summit Series got reset a few years ago with the idea of it truly being a mountaineering kit, not just a logo for top end stuff. I can say it does now in 2018 it definitely competes with any other high end kit from any of the competitors. Some of the first year (the all grey stuff) had some stumbling blocks (L6 wasn't compressible/light enough) or missing piece (no softshell), but it was a really good restart and I still love my athlete tested pair of the L5 pants from that first season. I guess I'll kinda go over the pieces that are real standouts for me that have really changed how I thought about certain pieces or how I layer.

-Ventrix. If you don't have an active insulation piece in 2018 FFS GET ONE (ventrix, nano air, uberlayer, etc...). There is no reason now to buy any sort of high loft/ heavier weight fleece now if you are someone who is actually a mountain athlete (ie someone who cares about the balance of weight/breathability/ insulation). Sure the Denali or MH Monkey Man are cozy but weight more, compress larger, and soak up more weight wet, so they are never in my backpack anymore. Difference between the Summit and non Summit Ventrix is the Summit hood is cut for a helmet, one more pocket, and has more durable construction/ fabric. Don't remember all the differences with the flight and steep series ventrix.

-L5 Pro Jacket. Only 2 pockets FTW. The constant problem of if your lower pockets are in the way/ covered by backpack straps or a harness is no more. I was skeptical at first about just having two huge chest pockets (one has a mesh sub pocket) but one day of ice climbing in it made me stoked, and another day of ski touring and being able to put full cut powder ski skins in there cemented it. You can fit a wine bottle in each pocket even. Fit is good, doesn't pull up when you reach up, patterned to be layered under, hood is perfect for a helmet. Yes it's 40ishD body cause all the athletes don't want it any heavier. Really unless you are a guide, patroller, or someone who likes to OW in the rain you don't need 70-100D. I hope the industry as a whole moves towards 2 huge chest pockets, it'll help everyone.

-L5 Ultralight Storm Jacket Unless I'm going ice climbing, or DUMPING storm skiing (resort skiing excluded from this) I usually don't bring any of my GTX jackets anymore but this one. Sub 200g 3 layer GTX is a pretty cool thing to have in your pack as a safety net especially cause it packs up so small. Yes, usually people consider ultralight gtx items to be a niche item but, I honestly now use this more than any of my other GTX jackets. Like it more for traveling, bc skiing, climbing, because you don't have to have that compromise of knowing you'll be waterproof but at a significant weight and space disadvantage. Yeah it is a more delicate jacket, but let's not be naive about a sub 200g jacket. Not sure if I'd feel the same way if I had to pay full retail, but it has really changed my perception on ultra lightweight gear in general from niche items to really really good tools.

-L4 Softshell Yeah it's a Windstopper® softshell, everyone makes one. But for the longest time we didn't have a proper summit level softshell so I'm really stoked on this one. Lightweight, proper high pockets, no pit zips, hood that works with and without a helmet. I guess this one is a bit more of being a fan of the brand piece since I could finally wear a softshell to work again, well that wasn't an Apex Flex. Apex Flex is a good softshell just HEAVY because of all the elastic, so it's off my list for a true mountain piece. It's good enough that I sold off my other softshell jackets that I was holding onto.

Negatives?
I still use softshell pants from years ago (before I worked at TNF) because the fit of the new Summit ones is for mountaineering boots and not wide enough for a ski boot (well rando boots fit). Sometimes designing so well for a specific end use kills the versatility of a piece. Athletes wanted less crampon punctures...I want to use the same pants for skiing and climbing  . Or in the ski pack area I either have to use a heavy bag that was designed for heli/ motorized bc skiing or an ultralight bag that for rando racing. Would like something that shoots the middle with ski specific features...

I wish our customer service was better, I really do. Not sure if it's done out of house, but even my mom has had issues.

Inside Track wrote: I work in product at TNF. My thoughts and actions do not necessarily reflect the brand or it's views. I am far from a mouthpiece for the brand.
 
I won't be able to tell you anything that isn't public knowledge, but I will be able to give you a pretty unbiased opinion. I have competitive product in my closet and use it all the time, even in the categories I work in. So if it's something we make, but there is a much better option out there I'll use that as I regularly use that. Also on the topic of VF, they are very hands off as "owners" of companies, people from Vans will say the same thing.

TLDR; Even though I work for the brand there is still stuff I'd buy full retail if I did not and worked for someone else, Summit series is on a good trajectory. 

Conrad does have input on stuff but let's be honest, Conrad is not at the cutting edge of alpinism anymore. Why do you think he got David Llama on the TNF athlete team? Conrad is still a great guy to work with since he is still so plugged into the direction of alpinism, AND understands that we need to make pieces commercially. On the internal leadership side our new general manager of mountain sports is a legit dude who gets after it and understands the balance between 100% athlete product and making something commercial.

As most of you probably know Summit Series got reset a few years ago with the idea of it truly being a mountaineering kit, not just a logo for top end stuff. I can say it does now in 2018 it definitely competes with any other high end kit from any of the competitors. Some of the first year (the all grey stuff) had some stumbling blocks (L6 wasn't compressible/light enough) or missing piece (no softshell), but it was a really good restart and I still love my athlete tested pair of the L5 pants from that first season. I guess I'll kinda go over the pieces that are real standouts for me that have really changed how I thought about certain pieces or how I layer.

-Ventrix. If you don't have an active insulation piece in 2018 FFS GET ONE (ventrix, nano air, uberlayer, etc...). There is no reason now to buy any sort of high loft/ heavier weight fleece now if you are someone who is actually a mountain athlete (ie someone who cares about the balance of weight/breathability/ insulation). Sure the Denali or MH Monkey Man are cozy but weight more, compress larger, and soak up more weight wet, so they are never in my backpack anymore. Difference between the Summit and non Summit Ventrix is the Summit hood is cut for a helmet, one more pocket, and has more durable construction/ fabric. Don't remember all the differences with the flight and steep series ventrix.

-L5 Pro Jacket. Only 2 pockets FTW. The constant problem of if your lower pockets are in the way/ covered by backpack straps or a harness is no more. I was skeptical at first about just having two huge chest pockets (one has a mesh sub pocket) but one day of ice climbing in it made me stoked, and another day of ski touring and being able to put full cut powder ski skins in there cemented it. You can fit a wine bottle in each pocket even. Fit is good, doesn't pull up when you reach up, patterned to be layered under, hood is perfect for a helmet. Yes it's 40ishD body cause all the athletes don't want it any heavier. Really unless you are a guide, patroller, or someone who likes to OW in the rain you don't need 70-100D. I hope the industry as a whole moves towards 2 huge chest pockets, it'll help everyone.

-L5 Ultralight Storm Jacket Unless I'm going ice climbing, or DUMPING storm skiing (resort skiing excluded from this) I usually don't bring any of my GTX jackets anymore but this one. Sub 200g 3 layer GTX is a pretty cool thing to have in your pack as a safety net especially cause it packs up so small. Yes, usually people consider ultralight gtx items to be a niche item but, I honestly now use this more than any of my other GTX jackets. Like it more for traveling, bc skiing, climbing, because you don't have to have that compromise of knowing you'll be waterproof but at a significant weight and space disadvantage. Yeah it is a more delicate jacket, but let's not be naive about a sub 200g jacket. Not sure if I'd feel the same way if I had to pay full retail, but it has really changed my perception on ultra lightweight gear in general from niche items to really really good tools.

-L4 Softshell Yeah it's a Windstopper® softshell, everyone makes one. But for the longest time we didn't have a proper summit level softshell so I'm really stoked on this one. Lightweight, proper high pockets, no pit zips, hood that works with and without a helmet. I guess this one is a bit more of being a fan of the brand piece since I could finally wear a softshell to work again, well that wasn't an Apex Flex. Apex Flex is a good softshell just HEAVY because of all the elastic, so it's off my list for a true mountain piece. It's good enough that I sold off my other softshell jackets that I was holding onto.

Negatives?
I still use softshell pants from years ago (before I worked at TNF) because the fit of the new Summit ones is for mountaineering boots and not wide enough for a ski boot (well rando boots fit). Sometimes designing so well for a specific end use kills the versatility of a piece. Athletes wanted less crampon punctures...I want to use the same pants for skiing and climbing  . Or in the ski pack area I either have to use a heavy bag that was designed for heli/ motorized bc skiing or an ultralight bag that for rando racing. Would like something that shoots the middle with ski specific features...

I wish our customer service was better, I really do. Not sure if it's done out of house, but even my mom has had issues.

I've been interested in the softshell but there's absolutely no reviews out there by any of the big sites or YouTube.  I usually run a little cooler so I was looking for a little thicker or windproof softshell and that seems like the ticket?

Matt S. wrote:

I've been interested in the softshell but there's absolutely no reviews out there by any of the big sites or YouTube.  I usually run a little cooler so I was looking for a little thicker or windproof softshell and that seems like the ticket?

It's on the thinner side. No fleece "insulation" but it does have KINDA fleecy feeling interior, no pile just a brushed woven texture . Basically feels way better than a GTX jacket against your skin.

Can't say enough good things about the Ventrix. Most comfortable climbing jacket I’ve ever owned.