Tie that cordlette with what knot?

Hi guys,

My cordlette that i am using for anchor building, i see most people tie a double fishermans to join the two ends. What about the flemmish bend? If its a retraced figure 8 shouldnt that be bomber to the same extent as the double fishermans? 

Also i heard that the tight wrap of the fishermans  (or any knot) can weaken the material due to really tight hotspots in the knot, is that true? I heard thats why we use a water knot for webbing, as the material just flows through the knot. 

What are you’re guys thoughts?

Thanks!

North Col

Well, if you're Flemmish...

Also, for your continued inquiry:Tech Weenie

It depends on the material of your cord. The skinny tech cords tend to be slipperier and also more susceptible to weakening when repeatedly tied and untied. So on those the usual suggestion is to tie a triple fisherman's and then leave it tied.

I personally use a 6mm nylon cord as it's cheaper than the 5.5mm tech stuff and I like the ability to open it up and run single legs to anchor points if necessary. For mine, I usually just tie a flat overhand knot to close the loop. Quick, easy, and plenty strong enough for any anchor application.

Flat overhand bend for me.  It's secure enough and gives you the ability to untie the cordalette easily so it can be used for other things like self rescue, leave-behind rappel anchors or just having a longer cord for trad anchors.

Flemish on my nylon cordelette loops, double fishermans on my prussik loops..

Flat overhand with sufficient tail (enough so that you can tie a second overhand behind it) is great.  I had mine done with double fisherman's before but retied them with overhands.  As mentioned by someone else, an overhand will be easier to get untied if you want to use the entire length of the cord for some reason.  A double fisherman's will be a pain to get undone if you've weighted it a lot.

Matt Zia wrote: The skinny tech cords tend to be slipperier and also more susceptible to weakening when repeatedly tied and untied. So on those the usual suggestion is to tie a double fisherman's and then leave it tied.

You meant triple fisherman's amigo.

slevin wrote:

You meant triple fisherman's amigo.

This is a good post - I will actually switch from a double to a triple now that I read this when I use this knot!

I saw that the triple is usually for Spectra or Dynema due to the slippery nature of the material, but it definitely wont hurt on anything else. I have to look at this overhand method though tonight.

Anyone have any comments on the tight bends in the knots causing them to be significantly weaker?Does that play  role in anyone's knot selection, or is that just simply overkill thinking?

Thanks!

North Col 

Cordllete, corrdallete and or corrdelette, which is it?  Trick question because it doesn't matter.  Ditch it and use slings or the rope.  If you're not putting up an FA in the mountains or have a high likelihood of bailing, leave it at home.  Some guys will object but they're slow and old.  You'll thank me later.      

Erroneous Publicus wrote: Cordllete, corrdallete and or corrdelette, which is it?  Trick question because it doesn't matter.  Ditch it and use slings or the rope.  If you're not putting up an FA in the mountains or have a high likelihood of bailing, leave it at home.  Some guys will object but they're slow and old.  You'll thank me later.      

Oh this will spark some debate alright lol

hikingdrew wrote: Flemish on my nylon cordelette loops, double fishermans on my prussik loops..

Same things for me.

North Col wrote:

This is a good post - I will actually switch from a double to a triple now that I read this when I use this knot!

I saw that the triple is usually for Spectra or Dynema due to the slippery nature of the material, but it definitely wont hurt on anything else. I have to look at this overhand method though tonight.

Anyone have any comments on the tight bends in the knots causing them to be significantly weaker?Does that play  role in anyone's knot selection, or is that just simply overkill thinking?

Thanks!

North Col 

All knots weaken cord/webbing. The stuff we use is still up to the tasks. So a total non-issue.

climbing friend,

1) you would be doing the dying

2) this matter may only be settle through internet analysis most careful of many anchors built in your living room involving chairs 

Get long sewn slings and ditch the cord, lighter and less bulky. Use the rope w/ shorter slings if swapping leads. If you know you might need to leave bail webbing/biner, take something with you, leave in pack until rapping. 

Knot strength is not an issue.

The best knot is probably no knot, as in


or


because you get better adjustability of your power point.

If you insist on knotting, consider the following two options:

1. The Zepplin bend animatedknots.com/zeppelin/…  (but please use longer tails than shown in the link).  Used for dirigible guylines BITD and so strong, resistant to repeated loading and unloading, and relatively easy to untie after loading.

2. Stick with the no-loop concept and tie two small carabiner-sized loops in the ends of the cordelette (figure-eight loops will do) as in https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/cordelette-2-the-bunny-ears-cordelette .

North, the only time you need to use a triple is with dyneema/Spectra type "tech" cords. I personally would not tie bare dyneema (aka a cut sling) together except the the most dire circumstance.   For regular nylon accessory cord there is no saftey advantage to tying a triple fisherman.      

Personally I dislike the idea of a flat overhand (edk) for cordalette (though it could be done safely), at least if it is being used at a multipitch anchor.     The flat overhand can roll under high load and a cordalette on an anchor could in theory take a factor 2 fall which would def roll....  I use this knot for tying ropes together to rap, but that is a low impact activity.    If you use a flat overhand (aka edk) you need to have a safe tail length and I personally would put an overhand on one tail as well to stop rolling.  As a new climber I would stick to a double fisherman or figure 8 rethread until you learn your systems and possible exceptions more.

I recently switched to, and strongly prefer, having bunny ears, or simply two small figure 8 on a bight at each end with sufficient tail. This gives the option of putting the two ends on the same carabiner, essentially creating a looped cord, or using them at either end of the anchor which gives extra material available for when pieces are far apart. See links for pictures/video:

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/cordelette-2-the-bunny-ears-cordelette
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q2PdnAAy6w

I also recommend you learn to use the rope, as I almost never use cord if swapping leads. Still, I always carry a 5mm Titan chord back up because it's lightweight and VERY compact.

Knots compromising material strength is a non issue because of the over engineering and large safety factors. This allows material to be weakened and still hold the forces we put on it. Additionally, you would very rarely, if ever, be putting a full load directly on the knot like a sewn sling. Typically the knot is in a doubled system or just in one leg of an anchor, and personally, always in my longest leg (I clove to the first biner to keep the knot out of my way) which will receive the smallest load. Nonetheless, it's good to be aware and keep that within the considerations of our overall safety analysis.

Here is some insight.

I use a flat overhand. Its easy to tie, and easy to untie. When I climb with cord, its usually because I intend to sling trees, boulders, chockstones, etc, as well as cutting it up and using it as rap tat.

Nylon/polyester cord? EDK.

Next question, please.

Generally speaking, the Flemmish bend will be stronger than a double (or triple) fisherman's bend, but that does not mean that a double fisherman's bend is not more than strong enough.  The EDK can roll, so give it plenty of tail if you use it.  If the cord was going to be used for a toprope anchor, I wouldn't use the EDK, but I wouldn't have a problem using it for a multipitch anchor where someone is sitting at the anchor the whole time it's there.

I leave my cord untied, most the time I do not NEED it in a loop and the none of those bends take very long to tie if I do.