Lead belaying directly on the anchor with a grigri

Here's the scenario.

• Multipitch with bomber 2 bolt belay stations
• Leader is much much heavier than belayer
• Fixed point anchor setup 

I've seen direct lead belays done, but only with a munter. Does anyone have experience doing this with a grigri? Or any reason why it should be avoided? ​This video​​​ demonstrates the devices locking ability in this scenario even without belayer assistance.

What? It's accepted use by petzl...

https://m.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Belaying-a-second-directly-off-a-fixed-anchor-at-the-belay-station?ProductName=GRIGRI-PLUS&Familly=Belay-devices-and-descenders

Chase G wrote: What? It's accepted use by petzl...

https://m.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Belaying-a-second-directly-off-a-fixed-anchor-at-the-belay-station?ProductName=GRIGRI-PLUS&Familly=Belay-devices-and-descenders

Guess if you don´t know the difference between lead and second we can´t help you.....

I'm a very new climber, so I feel like I'm missing something here. Isn't this what autolocking belay devices are for? Wouldn't he just clovehitch his side of the rope to the anchor, PAS to the anchor, then connect his Grigri directly behind the leader? Or is he talking about connecting the Grigri to the anchor itself in guide mode?

You can do this, its just frowned upon. There are videos of them in Germany testing this setup showing what happens to a belayer in a big fall. I have done this setup. Its a little tricky feeding rope smoothly through the grigri for the lead climber. But, if there is a big weight difference its a way to protect your belayer from getting smashed into the anchors.

Jared Scarn wrote: I'm a very new climber, so I feel like I'm missing something here. Isn't this what autolocking belay devices are for? Wouldn't he just clovehitch his side of the rope to the anchor, PAS to the anchor, then connect his Grigri directly behind the leader? Or is he talking about connecting the Grigri to the anchor itself in guide mode?

Jared, clove-hitching your rope to the anchor is good; then it is unnecessary to use your PAS to the anchor. Keep your PAS stowed until connecting to the anchor when setting up for rappel.

The Gri Gri has only one mode - autolocking, regardless of whether you are belaying a leader or a follower. In this case, the OP is asking about belaying the leader the with device connected to the anchor, rather than off the harness.

FrankPS wrote: The Gri Gri has only one mode - autolocking,

Gri Gri is "assisted braking" not auto locking ... maybe the gumby need to know there's a difference 

Ska Ggs wrote:

Gri Gri is "assisted braking" not auto locking ... maybe the gumby need to know there's a difference 

Yes, always keep your brake hand on the rope, regardless of the device.

a fixed point belay needs slippage to have forces deemed as acceptable to the leader and also what the gear you place can withstand. If you use an ABD for fixed point belay it will be very painful for the leader and it is very likely that you will start snapping wires on nuts and ripping cams out of the wall. Using an ABD in this way is dangerous and YGD.

Seriously, if your gonna try and use a fixed point belay for the leader remember these simple rules:
1. make sure the fixed point limits movement to less than 20cm
2. use a belay method that will slip; i.e. tube device or munter
3. belayer wears gloves.

Jim Titt wrote:

Guess if you don´t know the difference between lead and second we can´t help you.....

Oh yep I'm the idiot and misread. That's what I get for posting on mp in the middle of the night. 

Dr Strangelove wrote: Here's the scenario.

• Multipitch with bomber 2 bolt belay stations
• Leader is much much heavier than belayer
• Fixed point anchor setup (banshee)

I've seen direct lead belays done, but only with a munter. Does anyone have experience doing this with a grigri? Or any reason why it should be avoided? This video demonstrates the devices locking ability in this scenario even without belayer assistance.

In this scenario, why are you concerned about the wight difference.  If you are tied into the belay station, once the leader has a couple of pieces in, unclip whatever he placed into the master point/anchors.  If he falls, the anchors will keep you from getting sucked up the route.

If you are really concerned about getting sucked up into the first piece, either anchor yourself down from the start or get an Ohm for the first placement on lead.  I go indirect all the time to bring someone up, but I would never go indirect when lead belaying.  The meachanics of feeding the rope change, so I doubt I could do it efficiently or as safely as doing it direct.

Well the answer is yes it would work but it may or may not be a bad idea. More importantly, why do you want to use a gri-gri instead of a munter or tube. Knowing the circumstances that make  you want to use a gri-gri instead will help us or you figure out what the best solution is. 

vimeo.com/44869774

Matt Himmelstein wrote:

In this scenario, why are you concerned about the wight difference.  If you are tied into the belay station, once the leader has a couple of pieces in, unclip whatever he placed into the master point/anchors.  If he falls, the anchors will keep you from getting sucked up the route.

If you are really concerned about getting sucked up into the first piece, either anchor yourself down from the start or get an Ohm for the first placement on lead.  I go indirect all the time to bring someone up, but I would never go indirect when lead belaying.  The meachanics of feeding the rope change, so I doubt I could do it efficiently or as safely as doing it direct.

Yes, the anchor will "keep you from getting sucked up the route", it will smash you into the wall violently when your tether comes taught, especially on a traversing inertia limited fall. Our wieght difference is 48% 

Tom Hickmann wrote: You can do this, its just frowned upon. There are videos of them in Germany testing this setup showing what happens to a belayer in a big fall. I have done this setup. Its a little tricky feeding rope smoothly through the grigri for the lead climber. But, if there is a big weight difference its a way to protect your belayer from getting smashed into the anchors.

I feel like the main problem is that it would be a very hard catch. A counter piece for the belayer may be a better option, but I'm thinking of routes where this probably isn't an option.  

What about an assisted tube style device? It would provide a little extra braking force while allowing for a softer catch than a grigri

The best thing may just be to lower the belayer below the stance. 

FrankPS wrote:

Jared, clove-hitching your rope to the anchor is good; then it is unnecessary to use your PAS to the anchor. Keep your PAS stowed until connecting to the anchor when setting up for rappel.

The Gri Gri has only one mode - autolocking, regardless of whether you are belaying a leader or a follower. In this case, the OP is asking about belaying the leader the with device connected to the anchor, rather than off the harness.

Cool. Thanks for the info! Also, I do know to never take my hand off the brake rope, but I understand why it needs to be said.

As others have said, either use a munter or tube, or belay from 10-20 feet below the belay stance. The latter is probably best as not only does it protect the belayer from being violently jerked into the anchor/wall, but it also dramatically reduces FF if the leader falls before placing/clipping(assuming you clip the anchor as you should.) Obviously if the anchors are right over a roof or the next pitch is a 190 foot rope stretcher you can’t do that, but in all other cases it’s probably best.

Dr Strangelove wrote:

Yes, the anchor will "keep you from getting sucked up the route", it will smash you into the wall violently when your tether comes taught, especially on a traversing inertia limited fall. Our wieght difference is 48% 

A tether is not going to smash you violently into the wall unless you rig it in such a way to do that.  And depending on the situation, you may not be able to anchor yourself (hanging belay anyone?).  But I will still say before you try and rig up an indirect lead belay, look into the Ohm.

Ryan M Moore wrote: As others have said, either use a munter or tube, or belay from 10-20 feet below the belay stance. The latter is probably best as not only does it protect the belayer from being violently jerked into the anchor/wall, but it also dramatically reduces FF if the leader falls before placing/clipping(assuming you clip the anchor as you should.) Obviously if the anchors are right over a roof or the next pitch is a 190 foot rope stretcher you can’t do that, but in all other cases it’s probably best.

A better option than lowering the belayer is doing a chariot belay where the leader starts up the next pitch to place a jesus piece or two and then downclimbs back to the belay to bring up the follower. Then you're on TR till you get to the jesus piece and you completely avoid the potential for FF2 unless your jesus piece rips.

wes calkins wrote: 
1. make sure the fixed point limits movement to less than 20cm
2. use a belay method that will slip; i.e. tube device or munter
3. belayer wears gloves.

These three points are worth reiterating and sum it up nicely. 

Publication pending (will likely be distributed via the AAC in the next few months after review), but I recently completed some research on the subject at Petzl this summer. The loads in a fixed-point belay in the FF2 scenario (the worst case) can get quite large. The loads on the anchor are less than if the anchor is clipped as a redirect (as a result of the pulley effect). However, the loads on the leader increase relative to a redirected belay as force is transmitted directly between the leader and the anchor. The desirable attribute of protecting the second from having their world rocked in a hard fall comes at the cost of increasing the load on the falling leader. To mitigate this, the belay rope needs to slip to reduce the force experienced by the leader. A GriGri would not allow this to happen and force on the leader could become rapidly injurious. Other types of ABDs (Jul, Smart, Pilot, etc.) do not have public test results (as far as I know, though I'd love to be corrected), and they're on my list for future testing. I'm fairly certain the Alpine Up (or Click Up? can't remember, sure someone will correct me--thanks in advance) has been tested for fixed point belaying and approved by the manufacturer for this use. Consequently, this is the only ABD I'd recommend for this purpose of which I'm aware.

SPECULATION:
Once a piece or two is clipped, it's likely fine to use a fixed point belay with an ABD given the reduction in fall factor. However, I don't have any data on this.

Some numbers as an example: Fixed-point belay on a munter-mule (minimal slip, similar to ABD, used as a calibration test case) 9.8mm rope with 80kg soft mass dropped from 1.2m above anchor (basically when the leader's feet are even with the anchor bolts, give or take, so a very conservative fall distance) generated 7.9kN of force. That's enough to start breaking small gear. It's also enough to wreck the leader (ANSI work at height standards call for limiting peak force on a person to 8kN; EN calls for average peak force to be 6kN if I recall correctly).

BETTER OPTION:
Use a hybrid system. Put a munter on for a fixed point belay. Estimate the distance to the first or second piece as appropriate, and put a GriGri on behind the munter that far down the rope and clip it to the belayer's harness. The leader takes a fixed point belay for the first piece or two, then they can find a stance or grab a piece while the belayer takes the rope out of the munter and proceeds to belay the rest of the pitch off their harness with a GriGri. This assumes there are no other viable alternatives such as relocating the belay, lowering the belayer farther down, or using a chariot belay system to pre-clip the first piece of the next pitch.