GriGri, twists, and short roping

Several times now, I've been belaying a leader with a perfectly flaked untwisted rope and had twists come up seemingly from nowhere, leading to the worst short rope ever as the twist hits the cam while I'm trying to hold it down with the thumb technique.  Does the grigri put twists in the rope by itself or something?  Or, am I just missing small twists in the rope when flaking?

Almost makes me want to use my ATC, but I appreciate the assisted braking for working moves and reliable low-effort catches.

I notice twists when my partner is foolish enough to use something besides a gri-gri.

When you run the rope over the side of the any device, it puts a twist in the rope, especially under heavy tension (when lowering).  Keeping a straight path limits the twisting, so it may be more an issue of twists arising because you pull the rope over the side of the Gri-Gri when lowering.

When lead belaying, I always try to whip a length of rope out of the pile (especially for friends that don't reflake the rope between climbs in the gym) so I have some unkinked rope ready to go and I have a warning that a rat's nest is headed toward the device.

Yes the grigri puts curls or twists in the rope. Think about how you can curl a length of ribbon by running parallel over a single sharp edge like 1 side of a pair of scissors. The grigri functions with the exact same motion happening to the rope. My experience is it doesn't really affect a newer more supple rope as much. Really starts to curl when the rope is sad and floppy. Full length rappel will remove the twists and keep them from being so bad that you short rope at least for a little while.

Pay attention to how you are feeding rope through the device. It may well be that you are introducing 1/8, to 1/4 turn to the rope as you feed it into the device. These small turns add up as you pay out rope. It's possible to reverse the trend by introducing a slight twist in the opposite direction as you pay out rope to your leader.

Flake the rope first, and then also flake as you go so you always have a 5-10 foot section ahead of you that's free of kinks. You can keep a hand on the brake while still using one or two fingers and your non-brake hand to keep the brake side flaked ahead of you.

Hmm, OK, so it's not just me going crazy, the device is twisting the rope.  I'm guessing holding the brake strand close, as you do when paying slack with the thumb press, doesn't help due to all the crazy angles.  Sounds like the way to avoid this is to manage the extended brake strand a little better, ensuring you have straight rope ready to go for clips.

Thanks for the tips so far!

if you force the rope to enter the device from the right side, over the curved section of aluminum, rather than straight on or slightly left, the angle is a little more rounded and you're less likely to get kinks. This also puts wear on the hardiest part of the device

I used a grigri for years and my rope was horribly twisted.  I am now a firm believer in the Gri-Gri twisting phenomenon.  I think it's mostly from lowering on it, you're supposed to put the rope over the side bail for friction but that also adds a twist to the rope the entire way down.  Over time the core of the rope just gets twisted and there isn't much you can do about it.  My Gri-gri is now permanently shelved and I get a little annoyed anytime I see a partner pull one out to use on any of my new ropes.

Mark Andes wrote: I used a grigri for years and my rope was horribly twisted.  I am now a firm believer in the Gri-Gri twisting phenomenon.  I think it's mostly from lowering on it, you're supposed to put the rope over the side bail for friction but that also adds a twist to the rope the entire way down.  Over time the core of the rope just gets twisted and there isn't much you can do about it.  My Gri-gri is now permanently shelved and I get a little annoyed anytime I see a partner pull one out to use on any of my new ropes.

https://www.climbing.com/skills/grigri-basics/ I do the method under "feeding slack quickly" and have never had kinking issues except as a result of poor flaking

Plenty of folks have used grigris without issue for a long time.  In my experience, frequent switching between grigri and ATC tends to cause kinks.

Every belay device puts twists in ropes just different twists.  Try to use a grigri and tubular belay device on your rope and it won't twist as son as you start using a third type such as an Edelrid Jul or something you are going to get twists.  grigri and atcs are different enough to cause kinks but I rarely have the issue. 

Lol, another "win" for the over-hyped Gri!

It’s not the belay device’s fault there are twists in the rope—just like it’s not the belay device’s fault if the climber hits the ground, or gets short short roped.

It isn’t fun, but flaking the rope all the way out before every climb will save you so many headaches. Try it, and see if it improves your belay experience.

As others have mentioned, you can also pay attention to how you are feeding the rope through your device—something I hope any belayer is doing all the time as a part of the process of keeping their climber safe.

David Arredondo wrote: It’s not the belay device’s fault there are twists in the rope—just like it’s not the belay device’s fault if the climber hits the ground, or gets short short roped.

Technically no, its not the devices fault but if the design of device makes problems happen more often then the device is to blame.

It isn’t fun, but flaking the rope all the way out before every climb will save you so many headaches. Try it, and see if it improves your belay experience.

As others have mentioned, you can also pay attention to how you are feeding the rope through your device—something I hope any belayer is doing all the time as a part of the process of keeping their climber safe.

In my experience using a pear shaped biner while switching between belay devices with your body oriented perpendicular to the earth's magnetic field during the vernal equinox while Mercury is in retrograde and your climbing partner is a Pisces or a Taurus is usually what causes twists in the rope.

Seriously, all of the suppositions in this thread about the cause of rope twisting are useless considering the amount of factors that go into the system. Maybe certain belay devices cause twisting; most often anchor setups cause twisting; maybe the way the rope is running over part of the rock or through a draw causes twisting sometimes; maybe some ropes are more prone to twisting than others; maybe the Illuminati has their hands in the rope manufacturing game and are selling pre-twisted ropes to undermine trust in our society and eventually bring about the apocalypse.

I've used a grigri for 10+ years without any rope twisting issues, except in rare circumstances, which are usually easily remedied by pulling the rope through the anchor to get it untwisted. This is a nonissue—just flake your rope, manage your brake strand, and climb on.

Abram Herman wrote: In my experience using a pear shaped biner while switching between belay devices with your body oriented perpendicular to the earth's magnetic field during the vernal equinox while Mercury is in retrograde and your climbing partner is a Pisces or a Taurus is usually what causes twists in the rope.

Seriously, all of the suppositions in this thread about the cause of rope twisting are useless considering the amount of factors that go into the system. Maybe certain belay devices cause twisting; most often anchor setups cause twisting; maybe the way the rope is running over part of the rock or through a draw causes twisting sometimes; maybe some ropes are more prone to twisting than others; maybe the Illuminati has their hands in the rope manufacturing game and are selling pre-twisted ropes to undermine trust in our society and eventually bring about the apocalypse.

I've used a grigri for 10+ years without any rope twisting issues, except in rare circumstances, which are usually easily remedied by pulling the rope through the anchor to get it untwisted. This is a nonissue—just flake your rope, manage your brake strand, and climb on.

This.

My grigri death machine actually removes twists from the rope.

I'm Aries, maybe I'm just not compatible with Petzl brand belay devices.  Hmm, I didn't really consider the feng shui of my belay stance either.

I probably just need to flake more thoroughly and pay better attention to what's upstream of the brake strand.

If you swap the lead end of the rope after each pitch/burn wouldn't that remove any twists that we're introduced as a result of the issues stated above? I usually use a Gri Gri in the gym and haven't noticed any issues, but I also swap ends after every lead.

Abram Herman wrote: most often anchor setups cause twisting...

What Abram said.

I don't think it is your GriGri. In my experience, lowering off a pair of horizontally situated rap rings is the prime culprit. Lowering off a setups like this (after cleaning) will twist the hell out of your rope:

Also flaking a rope once is often not enough to get the twists out. I find it is best if you pull the rope all the way through an anchor on a tall route.

it can be a bunch of things, starting from what you do with your rope when you first get it out of the packaging, to routes that traverse at the anchor, to pulling the rope in from the side of the device, to stacking the rope in one continuous coil when you are pulling your rope through an anchor (this is probably the most important one on a consistent basis), etc.

most climbers dont seem to pay attention to how they are doing each of these things, they just blame the device.