What is 4th class and how does it relate to 5.0 - 5.4?

What do you consider 4th class? Is there a clear distinction between 4th class routes and sub 5.4 routes that are almost silly to rate? The rule of thumb I learned is if you fall on a 3rd class route you'll probably break an arm or a leg, whereas a fall on a 4th class route would be much worse. Nevertheless I've had experiences where I felt safer soloing 5.4 then roping up on 4th class.

Is the 4th class relevant anymore and how does it relate to safety?

Climb more and you will be able to tell the difference between 4th class and 5.4. Answering this question is like answering a new climber who asks you "who decides what to grade the routes?"

I always understood 4th Class to mean the leader was roped up, and belayed, but felt no need to place protection. If you fell un-belayed, you would likely die. The second gets the full benefit of a belay.

3rd means a serious fall (as above) but no rope or belay strictly needed and you need your hands to negotiate the terrain.

1st Class, Hiking.
2nd Class, flight of stairs/basic scrambling.
3rd Class, hands for balance with some exposure, don't fall. Some might want a rope.
4th Class, need a rope and belay cause YGD but the moves don't make you feel the need for pro but its there if you need it and for building anchors.
5th Class, sew it up baby!

Skye Swoboda-Colberg wrote: Is there a clear distinction between 4th class routes and sub 5.4 routes that are almost silly to rate? 

Some think so (as in, it may be not so useful to rate). In Rossiter's RMNP guidebook (and perhaps others), he doesn't rate anything below 5.4 using the YDS, but rather the Welzenbach scale. So, Kieners Route is Class 4 (not YDS 5.4), Keyhole is Class 2 (not YDS Class 3), etc. I do agree that, particularly in alpine settings, trying to figure out where YDS Class 4 ends and YDS Class 5 begins is fairly blurry. I have no idea what the difference between 5.1, 5.2, and 5.3 is.

I wouldn't make the definition about the type of gear the leader is using though, since you can climb whatever climb you'd like without any gear (ie: "Third Classing It", just to pile on the confusion), and people have died on YDS Class 1 quite often after a fall.

nathanael wrote: Climb more and you will be able to tell the difference between 4th class and 5.4. Answering this question is like answering a new climber who asks you "who decides what to grade the routes?"

Here's my definition:

Class 1 – Class 3: Can definetely do it in running shoes

Class 4 – 5.4: Probably can do it in running shoes

Class 5.5 and higher : WTF am I doing wearing running shoes

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: I always understood 4th Class to mean the leader was roped up, and belayed, but felt no need to place protection. If you fell un-belayed, you would likely die. The second gets the full benefit of a belay.

3rd means a serious fall (as above) but no rope or belay strictly needed and you need your hands to negotiate the terrain.

1st Class, Hiking.
2nd Class, flight of stairs/basic scrambling.
3rd Class, hands for balance with some exposure, don't fall. Some might want a rope.
4th Class, need a rope and belay cause YGD but the moves don't make you feel the need for pro but its there if you need it and for building anchors.
5th Class, sew it up baby!

My understanding is similar but slightly different.

1st- Hiking 
2nd - scrambling off trail 
3rd - use of hands and potential for exposure ie a staircase with drops on both sides
4th -hands needed /  some may want to rope up
5th - you let go YGD

I think, replace, "need to use hands" with, "gets more technical" 'cause there's Class 5 climbs you can do without using yer hands.

http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/HomePage3.1.html

https://www.instagram.com/p/BllLQ_-h7IT/?hl=en&taken-by=captaincutloose

Obv. it's not always, "you let go, you die" in climbing,



I guess it comes back to the idea of, "Rock Craft". The technical difficulties of the grade don't dictate technique must be used, but perhaps that skill starts to be involved to an ever increasing degree.

I mean, what if you don't have any hands?

Or legs?

Gunks 5.4 (Gelsa) Third pitch is all slightly overhung, but there's a no hands rest shoulder jam in the middle, hence 5.4. :)

Gunks 5.3 (Minty) There's a roof but you kind of traverse around it.


Gunks 5.2 (Northern Pillar) Couldn't find a picture but you actually pull a small roof on the third pitch (albeit with lots of stemming opportunities so you never have to pull hard).


Gunks 5.1 If you stem up the corner on the left instead of traversing out the horizontal like the guy in the picture did. :P But seriously, this is the highest grade I can think of where there are no overhangs (that I know of--perhaps one of the Gunks old-timers will correct me).


I think that risk vs. consequence is an important concept here: the consequence of falling unroped on any of these routes is death, but there are plenty of people strong enough that the risk of them falling is negligible. I'd say 5.0 is where I would say the risk of a complete beginner falling is enough to start roping up complete beginners, but more skilled climbers solo 5.0 all the time.

As for the pure YDS...
Class 1 Walking with a low chance of injury, hiking boots a good idea.
Class 2 Simple scrambling, with the possibility of occasional use of the hands. Little potential danger is encountered.  Hiking Boots highly recommended.
Class 3 Scrambling with increased exposure. Handholds are necessary. A rope should be available for learning climbers, or if you just choose to use one that day, but is usually not required. Falls could easily be fatal.
Class 4 Simple climbing, with exposure. A rope is often used. Natural protection can be easily found. Falls may well be fatal.
Class 5 Is considered technical roped free (without hanging on the rope, pulling on, or stepping on anchors) climbing; belaying, and other protection hardware is used for safety. Un-roped falls can result in severe injury or death. Class 5 has a range of sub-classes, ranging from 5.0 to 5.15d,[6], to define progressively more difficult free moves.

David Kerkeslager wrote: Gunks 5.4 (Gelsa) Third pitch is all slightly overhung, but there's a no hands rest shoulder jam in the middle, hence 5.4.

I think this is more about the Gunks rating scale than general USA 4th class.

I also think the old-time Gunks rating scale is makes more sense than modern USA YDS difficulty ratings -- and that the distinction between 4th versus low 5th is much clearer with the Gunks scale.

And I also think getting modern USA to accept anything like the more rational Gunks scale is a lost cause. Because modern indoor gym ratings are even farther away from offering any meaningful distinction between 4th and low-5th class.

Ken

My view is that the 3rd - 4th - low 5th ratings are about difficulty, not exposure.
Because if fall in an unlucky configuration, you can surely die on 3rd class. A very experienced Seattle climber/hiker died on a backpacking trip in the high Sierra of California within the past ten years on a 3rd class pass crossing (or was it 2nd class?).

My philosophy for assigning ratings to routes that I contribute to MP is:
3rd class means that most hikers use hands, but the moves are obvious and non-strenuous.
4th means the moves are less obvious or smaller footholds, and perhaps require some finger strength for smaller handholds.
5th means some Technique (e.g. layback), or an overhanging move, or smaller holds sustained.

I also think that just one sequence that fits my definition of 5th makes the entire route 5th class.

Of course lots of strong experienced climbers barely notice doing a layback or single overhang move, so they feel no difference between 4th and 5th.

Ken

Holy shit ... you guys are amazing. How do you have so much free time available to write disertations on this stuff? I think all of these argumentents/ theorys are intersting but the OP asked for an explanation... rather than arguing the miniutia just write a short concise list of what the classes are... and obviously there are exceptions.. “ what if a guy has no hands so he cant use them is it really fifth class”? ROTFL  - Love you guys though- DUKE 

CAN'T SLEEP THINKING OF CLIMBING

abandon moderation wrote:

I have never seen anyone claim The Dangler to be 5.1 though, that is funny (it's 5.10, the way the picture shows)   

He didn't claim The Dangler to be 5.1:

"Gunks 5.1 If you stem up the corner on the left instead of traversing out the horizontal like the guy in the picture did. "

David Kerkeslager wrote:Gunks 5.1 If you stem up the corner on the left instead of traversing out the horizontal like the guy in the picture did. :P But seriously, this is the highest grade I can think of where there are no overhangs (that I know of--perhaps one of the Gunks old-timers will correct me).

There are plenty. Never Never Land, Sente, Wonderland ... among many others. In the lower grades you go around a lot more overhangs than you go over.

There is no clear division point between 3rd class, 4th class, and 5th class.  And, generally the better the climber, the more technically difficult something may be, yet still considered in a lower class of climbing/hiking.  

For me:
Class 1 - I'll walk casually wearing flip-flops.
Class 2 - I'd prefer to have decent shoes, and will walk carefully.
Class 3 - I expect my hands to be involved occasionally, I will have good foot wear, though not expect climbing shoes, a fall is generally low-consequence.
Class 4 - Hands involved, I'd rather have climbing shoes, good approach shoes.  A fall is unlikely, but in places could be high consequence.
Class 5 - Hands & feet climbing, I'd prefer to be roped up, and would consider it a "free solo" rather than a "scramble" if not using a rope.  If unroped, I would not attempt without climbing shoes.  A fall increases in likelihood, and would be high consequence if not roped up.
Class 6 - using mechanical means for advancement.

And while I might consider 5.3 to require climbing, someone else could see that as so easy with such low likelihood of a fall, that for them it might be 4th class.

I was on a 5.0 alpine route this past weekend and I would not have felt comfortable soloing it. It felt similar to a 5.6 alpine route in the same area that I soloed. 4th class on the other hand has very rarely felt scary or difficult, but certainly requires attention. I’ve never roped up on 4th class and never felt like I should have where as I’ve never been on 5th class that I thought would be silly to at least simul. Not sure if that really answers your question but at least another data point. 

All this bickering, did anyone even consult with Wikipedia?

1st: Hiking trail, look out for animal or snagged trees.
2nd: Obstacles present themselves on the trail, and an accident would injure.
3rd: Trail is gone, and a direct path may be hard to keep. Accident could maim (rock fall to the face, low angle slide on snow/ice/scree, etc.) so you wear a helmet and boots, but should not kill since exposure is not a major factor.
4th. Exposure is introduced. You begin looking to see how far a fall would take you, and try to navigate the safest route to minimize it. A rope is a good idea but using protection is only done with amateurs and guides, so you make sure you go around features to act as protection (think Chicken Out Ridge). Accident could maim or kill.
5th 5.0-5.4. You feel ultimately comfortable you could go ropeless, but know that if a hold did break you could be maimed or killed. A rope is used (but climbing shoes are not exclusively needed), and periodic protection is used to mitigate the most exposed portions.

Floyd Eggers wrote: All this bickering, did anyone even consult with Wikipedia?

1st: Hiking trail, look out for animal or snagged trees.
2nd: Obstacles present themselves on the trail, and an accident would injure.
3rd: Trail is gone, and a direct path may be hard to keep. Accident could maim (rock fall to the face, low angle slide on snow/ice/scree, etc.) so you wear a helmet and boots, but should not kill since exposure is not a major factor.
4th. Exposure is introduced. You begin looking to see how far a fall would take you, and try to navigate the safest route to minimize it. A rope is a good idea but using protection is only done with amateurs and guides, so you make sure you go around features to act as protection (think Chicken Out Ridge). Accident could maim or kill.
5th 5.0-5.4. You feel ultimately comfortable you could go ropeless, but know that if a hold did break you could be maimed or killed. A rope is used (but climbing shoes are not exclusively needed), and periodic protection is used to mitigate the most exposed portions.

Does anyone read other post... I quoted wiki.

one man gathers what another man spills

abandon moderation wrote:

I like that two people have quoted wikipedia, and not provided links.

I'm going to go fire up Encarta 95 and see what it says.

Do you even Compton?