Anyone use a 10cm ice screw with a screamer on sketchy thin ice?

How were the results? 

I doubt people will know, we generally don't fall on ice.

This is all the gear (except other screamers and QD) I used on a thin ice first ascent. The ice began to be so thin and it rip off. I fell on the fourth 10 cm screw and my screamer rip off. The impact was really low and I was surprised the screamer rip-off.
This picture is a reminder.
Of course, everything depends on the ice quality. In my case, the ice where I put screw was at the best possible quality.

Greg Shea wrote: I doubt people will know, we generally don't fall on ice.

Except for me!

jeeezzzzzussss

Marc-Olivier Chabot wrote: Except for me!

Are you ok?

Greg Shea wrote:

Are you ok?

Yes it was a very soft catch. It happen 2 or 3 years ago. Climbing is really about minding. Some climbers would have quit ice climbing and other would have done what I did; when I fell I drop one ice tools at the bottom of the wall because this pitch was the second and final pitch. I got lowered to my partner grab is old school straight shaft pick I never used before and I go back finish the first ascent. But yes it's was scary. The day was cold and windy. We were completely alone in the mountain. Was I stupid? I don't know but I'm now pretty proud of how I overcome my fear. 

Marc-Olivier Chabot wrote:

Yes it was a very soft catch. It happen 2 or 3 years ago. Climbing is really about minding. Some climbers will have maybe quit ice climbing and other did what I did; when I fell I drop one ice tools at the bottom of the wall because this pitch was the second and final pitch. I got lowered to my partner grab is old school straight shaft pick I never used before and I go back finish the first ascent. But yes it's was scary. The day was cold and windy. We were completely alone in the mountain. 

Right on

None of my friends have ever fallen on anything shorter than 13 cm (it held). But we all place 10s when that's the best we can get. Screamers... I think most climbers still carry at least one, but I get the impression that there's a growing awareness that they don't do as much as we were initially led to believe.

I have placed a pair of 10's a foot or so apart and equalized them with a sliding X sling. One can also stack them, typing off the end of the lower one to the upper one (to support against the lower (loaded) one bending out. I think Greg Lowe illustrated this somewhere/years ago.  I might have tried this once, but I know it's a real PITA to build while you're hanging from a tool overhead.  Finally, there are many folks, me included, who carry a 7 or 8 cm "super stubby" for real thin ice. Compared to that, a 10 starts to look like a real screw.  :-)

E-climb made a production 5 cm screw with a replaceable tip, I want one.

Greg Shea wrote: E-climb made a production 5 cm screw with a replaceable tip, I want one.

Yes I contact them many times to carrying there products on verticallstore.com. But I got no answer. Next time my cousin will wright the email in Spanish (it's a Spanish business). 

Greg Shea wrote: E-climb made a production 5 cm screw with a replaceable tip, I want one.

I'd be happy to cut a BD screw down to any length you want. PM me to arrange.

Marc-Olivier Chabot wrote:

Yes I contact them many times to carrying there products on verticallstore.com. But I got no answer. Next time my cousin will wright the email in Spanish (it's a Spanish business). 

One of your fellow Quebecois ice climbers makes these: http://www.icescrewsharpening.com/home/super-stubby, have you tried them?

CWood wrote:

One of your fellow Quebecois ice climbers makes these: http://www.icescrewsharpening.com/home/super-stubby, have you tried them?

Never tried them. Usually I did not protect an ice less than 10 cm, I put other pieces than ice screw if possible or I don't climb the route if I had to runout but when I have no choice I'll put a 10 cm screw and girth hitch the tubular. 

You might say: "yes but girth hitch a sling mean no screamer." Not since Yates make this, the third one:

http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/screamer/index.htm

Marc-Olivier Chabot wrote:

Never tried them. Usually I did not protect an ice less than 10 cm, I put other pieces than ice screw if possible or I don't climb the route if I had to runout but when I have no choice I'll put a 10 cm screw and girth hitch the tubular. 

I think testing has shown that girth hitching a partially driven screw doesn't work very well in simulated fall tests in ice. The hanger end bends downward and the sling ends up right where the hanger is, so there's no advantage in reducing leverage.

CWood wrote:

I think testing has shown that girth hitching a partially driven screw doesn't work very well in simulated fall tests in ice. The hanger end bends downward and the sling ends up right where the hanger is, so there's no advantage in reducing leverage.

Your probably right. It just not happen enough time to justify making a shorter screw. In fact, I'm thinking to make a short screw since many years and always said that I will do it but I'm maybe to lezzy or had not enough time to send a screw. Shame on me. 

 I’ve lowered off a super stubby Gunkie Mike made. It held. Buy one! When the time comes you’ll be happy to have it hanging off your harness.

 If you can place a 10 the ice isn’t sketchy and thin.

Bill Kirby wrote:  I’ve lowered off a super stubby Gunkie Mike made. It held. Buy one! When the time comes you’ll be happy to have it hanging off your harness.

 If you can place a 10 the ice isn’t sketchy and thin.

I will

Bill Kirby wrote:  I’ve lowered off a super stubby Gunkie Mike made. It held. Buy one! When the time comes you’ll be happy to have it hanging off your harness.

Lowering doubles the force on the screw vs. rappelling. If you're climbing on two half ropes that aren't too skinny, you could try clipping one rope to the super stubby, pulling up slack from your belayer to the midpoint of that rope, and rappelling from the screw. This has the added bonus of keeping you on belay on the second rope, and you are protected by any previous gear you put in as you get lower on the route -- just in case the super stubby pops after initially holding. If the super stubby pops immediately, it saves you perhaps a few feet of fall down to your last screw - assuming you had to place the super stubby higher than you could climb to with your waist.

To get the same effect without taking up a bunch of slack, you could "self belay" a lower from the super stubby with one rope belayed off a device on your belay loop. Of course trying to get a rope through a belay device and onto your harness while hanging out in tough terrain seems difficult.

EDIT: and if you think you can almost downclimb to a previously placed good screw, but think it might be too sketchy, pull up enough slack with one rope, one-handed-clove a biner or quickdraw on the super stubby, and use the slack as a hand line while reversing moves with your feet and other tool. Less than half the force of lowering because it likely never hits full body weight. This seems like it's not a great option, but it is an option.

Are you meaning sketchy because it is only thick enough to take 10cm's and that freaks some people out or sketchy because is only thick enough to take 10cm's and the ice is crap? It depends on what the definition of "is" is..

Anyhow, had a friend fall about 10-12 feet on BD 10cm and a Yates Zipper Screamer...Screamer held and was fully activated, he stopped, upside-down, eyeball to eyeball with his belayer...no injuries and he still climbs hard ice......ice was obviously good...screw was slightly bent... this is strictly anecdotal testing to be sure, but I am a believer on 10cm's in good ice with Screamers...anyone fall on a 10cm w/o a Screamer?

BTW...equalizing 2 screws in questionable ice is better accomplished (i.e. better chance of holding a fall) if you "stack" them, meaning one screw placed and then the second screw placed above/below 12" to 18" and slightly to the left or right (not directly over each other)...when ice fractures "usually" it does so in a horizontal fashion, not a vertical...although one day, when it had been super cold after a particularly warm spell, blah, blah, blah...anyhow, be sure to NOT use the Magic Sliding X when equalizing unless you can tie an overhand or Fig 8 knot in the webbing to stop the extension on the sling and the resulting shock load on the remaining screw should one of the screw placements fail...conversely you could use 2 separate slings that line up to meet the rope exactly to take the shock load of a fall at exactly the same time OR we could just not fall OR back off the climb OR let a stronger climber lead it OR not climb ice at all...lots of options but as always....YMMV

CWood wrote:

Lowering doubles the force on the screw vs. rappelling. If you're climbing on two half ropes that aren't too skinny, you could try clipping one rope to the super stubby, pulling up slack from your belayer to the midpoint of that rope, and rappelling from the screw. This has the added bonus of keeping you on belay on the second rope, and you are protected by any previous gear you put in as you get lower on the route -- just in case the super stubby pops after initially holding. If the super stubby pops immediately, it saves you perhaps a few feet of fall down to your last screw - assuming you had to place the super stubby higher than you could climb to with your waist.

Wow, I really don't like this approach. If that super stubby blows, you've lost your rap anchor AND your belay. FAR better to have the belayer take rope in on the 2nd strand as you rap - or get lowered - or lower yourself - on the other strand.

To get the same effect without taking up a bunch of slack, you could "self belay" a lower from the super stubby with one rope belayed off a device on your belay loop. Of course trying to get a rope through a belay device and onto your harness while hanging out in tough terrain seems difficult.

Shouldn't be a problem getting the device in there. I imagine anyone looking to lower/rap off has already hung (hands free) on the top piece.

EDIT: and if you think you can almost downclimb to a previously placed good screw, but think it might be too sketchy, pull up enough slack with one rope, one-handed-clove a biner or quickdraw on the super stubby, and use the slack as a hand line while reversing moves with your feet and other tool. Less than half the force of lowering because it likely never hits full body weight. This seems like it's not a great option, but it is an option.

Another bad option, as it leaves the retreating climber tied to a piece that's now out of reach overhead.