Sport anchors

Forgive me if I missed this in an earlier thread, but I searched and couldn’t find anything. When reaching the anchors on a sport climb is it better to clip the rap rings or the bolt hangar itself? I would think the bolt itself would be the right answer, but upon seeing many others clip the rings, I began to question it.
Thanks!

Either but the rap rings are plenty strong enough. A typical ring is well above strength requirements with just a tack weld, let alone a complete weld.

As with any fixed gear, visually inspect it first.

I prefer clipping the ring since the karabiner will hang nicely and there's room left for another (person's) draw if needed without everything being squeezed in the hanger.

If you trawl under the fixed hardware forum eventually you'll find plenty of discussion on ring strength.

Thanks. I’m not worried about ring strength so much as potential wear on it from the QuickDraw. If I were to set up a top rope on that route after leading it, would it be better to clip the hangar underneath the rings?

A quick draw won't wear a rap ring, nor anything else clipped into it. Or a hanger for that matter.

Top roping directly off rap rings will however so yes, use your own quickdraw and clip them either into the hangers or the rings.

On a lower off I don't like clipping hangers for often the karabiners stand a greater chance of being levered. 

That makes sense. Thanks for the input!

Clipping draws to the highest point possible one forces other climbers to make at least one more move. Thus there is no question. Clip 'em as high as possible. And do insist the climb has not been finished (or sent if you like the term) if yer buddy was not at a stance they could safely tether themselves to the anchor. Clipping the top draw high above one's head and happily jumping off is sooooo chicken and can not count as a send.

Pavel Burov wrote: Clipping draws to the highest point possible one forces other climbers to make at least one more move. Thus there is no question. Clip 'em as high as possible. And do insist the climb has not been finished (or sent if you like the term) if yer buddy was not at a stance they could safely tether themselves to the anchor. Clipping the top draw high above one's head and happily jumping off is sooooo chicken and can not count as a send.

I dont think this is a concern for the OP. They were concerned about making burrs on the rap ring with their draw. I've heard it both ways, that it doesn't matter, and that it could cause burrs. But, even after hearing that, the amount of times I've heard to just clip the rings far outweigh the other, so I typically clip the rings. As far as getting the send or not, if they're on TR, then the send doesn't matter anyway, and if they're leading, then there's no faking it, so I think your comment isn't very useful. Plus, who cares? If the person had fun and didn't make the last stance, I dont think it would ruin my day if they claimed a send, in this hypothetical TR world you and they live in.

Aluminum (a softer metal) draws on a steel (harder metal) rap ring will not create burrs. Anyone who says otherwise is severely misinformed.  

Often clipping the rap rings allow the carabiners to sit better and retain the full strength of the carabiner. But done correctly either way is fine.  Just check that the rap ring and everything above it are solid,  one thing to look for is a "lap link" connecting the chain, these relics of bad hardware choice are not fully rated.

I believe Pavel was trolling.  OP, clip the rap rings.  Clipping the bolt hangers can be much more difficult since there’s already something attached to it, and your carabiner might not be able to rotate freely or hang properly.  When you’re pumped out of your goard, the last thing you want to be doing is struggling to cram a fat carabiner into a crowded bolt.  Also, it will be much easier to clean, as the cleaner will:
1) Arrive at the anchor and clip the draws, 
2) Go on direct, likely to the bolts since you kindly left these open and they’re already resting on the rope,
 3) clean the anchor draws from the rap rings,        4) descend through the rings in the manner you guys discussed.  Ergo, you want to leave something that they can clip into open that they will not be descending from, otherwise it causes a clusterf&$@.  While they might be able to clip into the chains, this is usually harder and sometimes not possible if the chains are smaller.

DrRockso wrote: Aluminum (a softer metal) draws on a steel (harder metal) rap ring will not create burrs. Anyone who says otherwise is severely misinformed.  

Often clipping the rap rings allow the carabiners to sit better and retain the full strength of the carabiner. But done correctly either way is fine.  Just check that the rap ring and everything above it are solid,  one thing to look for is a "lap link" connecting the chain, these relics of bad hardware choice are not fully rated.

Great points, I think the aluminum to steel point is pretty much all I need to hear to know there's no harm in clipping the rings. Thanks

DrRockso wrote: Aluminum (a softer metal) draws on a steel (harder metal) rap ring will not create burrs. Anyone who says otherwise is severely misinformed.  

Often clipping the rap rings allow the carabiners to sit better and retain the full strength of the carabiner. But done correctly either way is fine.  Just check that the rap ring and everything above it are solid,  one thing to look for is a "lap link" connecting the chain, these relics of bad hardware choice are not fully rated.

Thanks. I guess this was what I was really going for. Sorry if I went about asking it poorly

I personally clip the bolt. That way the rings are free of clutter, so when it’s time to set up the rap it’s quicker and cleaner. Just the way I do it. 

If clipping to the rings/chains, make sure to inspect the rings/links/chain, the quicklink is often the weak point (particularly if it's fairly small diameter), or the last link in the chain (often worn down). Also it's not uncommon to see pretty deep notches in the quicklink attached to the hanger. This is also a good reason for clipping straight to the bolt hanger - although then your carabiners will start to get notched (but hopefully you inspect your biners and replace if they get too worn).

Here's an example of a severely worn/notched quicklink (which we replaced) last week in Boulder Canyon (Snooze Button, Plotinus Wall):

Doug18 wrote: I personally clip the bolt. That way the rings are free of clutter, so when it’s time to set up the rap it’s quicker and cleaner. Just the way I do it. 

Sometimes it implies binners are loaded over top links of chains. This is a big no-no. QD binner is point-to-point connector designed to be stretch-loaded. Any other type of load could break it. Personally I prefer to clip to the top link of a chain (if it is in good condition) so QDs are clipped to outer sides of an anchor (if clip 'em to inner sides it would be hard to clean the anchor after chains loading).

Something to notice:
* For sure top binners should be oriented "spines to the wall".
* Pay attention to rope side binners gates orientation. Some folks assemble draws so gates look the same side, some folks assemble draws so gates look opposite sides, some bring a random mix of both worlds.

Greg Barnes wrote: If clipping to the rings/chains, make sure to inspect the rings/links/chain, the quicklink is often the weak point (particularly if it's fairly small diameter), or the last link in the chain (often worn down). Also it's not uncommon to see pretty deep notches in the quicklink attached to the hanger. This is also a good reason for clipping straight to the bolt hanger - although then your carabiners will start to get notched (but hopefully you inspect your biners and replace if they get too worn).

Here's an example of a severely worn/notched quicklink (which we replaced) last week in Boulder Canyon (Snooze Button, Plotinus Wall):

We see tons of these here in Red River Gorge, yet another reason to switch to glue-ins, where the rounded eye does not harm ql's.