DMM Pivot vs good ol' ATC Guide?

Worth buying former if already have latter?  

I personally haven't noticed much of a difference. But I've never needed to lower someone more than 5 feet, and by nose hooking a biner through the hole. I like the pivot more, simply because it feels less bulky. Although, fun fact about the guide- It can be used to tighten loose bolts.

Keep in mind that, from what I can tell, all the dmm pivot does is lower the force needed to break the autoblock.  You still need to rig a prussik backup or whatever other backup method you go for.   It also means it is easier to do by accident, but having never used one I am not sure if this is an appreciable risk or not

The fact is that lowering with a tube device in guide mode is somewhat "complicated" and risky if done improperly.  Lots of stories about people being dropped. If you expect to need to lower with any regularity and want autoblocking use a gri gri.  I actually prefer my gri gri as it has significantly less friction and it saves my arms way more energy than what I lose due to carrying it and an atc for rappelling.

All that said, it sounds like the pivot helps make it more controlled, based on above.  Dmm makes good stuff....

Nick B wrote: The fact is that lowering with a tube device in guide mode is somewhat "complicated" and risky if done improperly.  Lots of stories about people being dropped. If you expect to need to lower with any regularity and want autoblocking use a gri gri.  I actually prefer my gri gri as it has significantly less friction and it saves my arms way more energy than what I lose due to carrying it and an atc for rappelling.

This: if you're going to use a plaquette belay, you need to know how to switch it to lower safely. I tend to prefer a Gri Gri as well in order to save my arms and elbows when I can on a single rope; however, it does need to be tending more carefully as it will not lock as readily without sufficient tension on the brake strand (compared to normal Gri Gri orientation or a plaquette).

If you have no experience belaying multi-pitch and no experience using a guide style device I really can't say enough how much it really rocks to just throw a GriGri on the anchor and belay your climber up. About the only reason to use a "guide mode" device is if you are belaying up two different climbers on two ropes. 

DMM Pivot is next level when it comes to guide mode. I made the switch last year from BD ATC-Guide solely on the ease of lowering a second. If they fell at the lip of a roof, or just want to re-climb a given section, lowering them in a controlled manner is simple and secure with the Pivot. Before, with the ATC-Guide I either used the carabiner-ratchet method to lower them down centimeter by centimeter or, more often, just told them "nope, today's not work-a-route day".  Setting up the ATC-Guide for a lower isn't hard, it's just time/effort consuming enough that you don't want to do it on the regular - so you don't.

Go for the Pivot. Try it out at a climbing store. It'll make you a convert as well.

Daddy Long Legs wrote:

I agree, that would be wise and makes total sense. Would most likely just be one climber (usual partner) if we ever did feel like doing a multipitch. 

Already have a grigri so could just belay off harness with it and redirect the following climber through biner on anchor above

You can belay off the harness OR connect the GriGri directly to the anchor to belay a 2nd. It tends to depend on your anchor height and position relative to the anchor which feels best.

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-a-second-directly-off-a-fixed-anchor-at-the-belay-station?ProductName=GRIGRI-2

Señor Arroz wrote: If you have no experience belaying multi-pitch and no experience using a guide style device I really can't say enough how much it really rocks to just throw a GriGri on the anchor and belay your climber up. About the only reason to use a "guide mode" device is if you are belaying up two different climbers on two ropes. 

Unfortunately lowering safely with the GriGri in guide mode is no less trivial than with an ATC Guide. It's a bit less all-or-nothing, but you have the added danger that the lever can get tangled in things and stuck open.

SOP is to redirect the rope through a carabiner above the device before lowering. Petzl sells an overpriced biner that does this in one biner, but any carabiner placed higher on the anchor will work.

not sure how many of the people commenting about the cons of lowering with the pivot have actually tried it, but i have lowered a climber from above with the grigri, pivot and atc. in my experience it is significantly easier and more controlled to lower with the pivot than either of the other two. as mentioned above the atc seems like an off/on switch. you are either lowering fast or not at all. the grigri has more control than the atc but still seems a bit jerky to me. the pivot is very easy to control (both on/off and speed) if you put a biner through the hole and use the biner as a handle to lift up.

Single ropes work great with grigri. Very smooth belaying from top, easy to lower your second. (Dont forget to redirect the rope when lowering)  however its heavy and really not totally neccessary, so lots of times multipitching i leave it behind.
Atc vs pivot: I used atc for many years and i dont think i ever had to lower my second. If i thought i might have to, i belayed them up as you would a normal belay, rather than off the anchor. However, i thought the pivot looked sweet, and my atc was worn put, so i got one. I still haven't had to lower my second .... but i kind of hate the pivot. There is so much frickin friction on the ropes! Rappelling is a chore. Even with thin doubles, just tons of drag through the device, so much that i suspect it is twisting my rope up. 

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Unfortunately lowering safely with the GriGri in guide mode is no less trivial than with an ATC Guide. It's a bit less all-or-nothing, but you have the added danger that the lever can get tangled in things and stuck open.

SOP is to redirect the rope through a carabiner above the device before lowering. Petzl sells an overpriced biner that does this in one biner, but any carabiner placed higher on the anchor will work.

I use the overpriced carabiner and it works great, for me far easier to lower someone from above. My only complaint belaying a second with it is that the weight of the rope will pull slack back through due to the orientation.   

If you plan on doing any ice a grigri is out.  

My perceived pros and cons, having used and lowered with both:

ATC Guide
+ feel sturdier as a single piece with no moving parts (but there's no practical difference)
+ seems to me like it is slightly more durable than the Pivot
- as others mentioned, I felt it was almost an all or nothing lower, there wasn't much in between

DMM Pivot
+ easier, more controlled lowering
+ larger guide mode hole allows you to rotate any carabiner through it when clipped in (as opposed to the smaller hole of the ATC guide; some carabiner gates don't fit through it)
+ lighter (I think, don't quote me on it)
- seems (to me) to be made of a less durable alloy, so I've noticed faster wear on it than the ATC guide

One difference too is the horizontal guide mood loop of the Pivot vs the vertical guide loop of the ATC Guide. This is just a minor personal preference though, depending on how you will generally build your anchors.

Overall, I prefer the Pivot and it is always my go-to belay device on multipitch routes.

Regarding the grigri for guide mode belay:
It may just be me, or because I have the original GriGri, but I personally don't like it because it does not seem to lock the rope for me when not under tension. If the climber is not weighing his/her end, I find the weight of the rope on the climber side pulls down and slowly starts feeding slack back out unless you're always holding on with some firmness onto the brake strand. With most other belay devices (like ATC Guide and Pivot) you can maintain a very light grip on the brake strand, just in case it were to slip, but I find that I can't do that with the GriGri without losing some progress.

Just my two cents

Miguel D wrote
Regarding the grigri for guide mode belay:
It may just be me, or because I have the original GriGri, but I personally don't like it because it does not seem to lock the rope for me when not under tension. If the climber is not weighing his/her end, I find the weight of the rope on the climber side pulls down and slowly starts feeding slack back out unless you're always holding on with some firmness onto the brake strand. With most other belay devices (like ATC Guide and Pivot) you can maintain a very light grip on the brake strand, just in case it were to slip, but I find that I can't do that with the GriGri without losing some progress.

Just my two cents

No problems with that using a gri gri 2.   The original gri gri is not meant for ropes less than 10mm and I am guessing you are using less than 10mm ropes like most people these days.  Fatter rope or a grip grip 2 or + should eliminate that problem if that is the case.

One other thing to consider is that the BD ATC guide has bigger holes which makes it easier to use with fatter ropes. The DMM (which I think also makes the Petzl Reverso) has narrower which I like for thinner ropes..

Nick B wrote: Keep in mind that, from what I can tell, all the dmm pivot does is lower the force needed to break the autoblock.  You still need to rig a prussik backup or whatever other backup method you go for.

This is not true.  DMM maintains it is safe to lower without a backup and I’ve done this several times without issue.  The fact that the Guide mode hole moves (pivots) allows you to slowly release the autoblock and control the descent; this is very different from the rigid on/off of ATC guides and highlights the engineering significance of the Pivot.  I own both; the ATC Guide collects dust.

Ted Pinson wrote: This is not true.  DMM maintains it is safe to lower without a backup and I’ve done this several times without issue.  The fact that the Guide mode hole moves (pivots) allows you to slowly release the autoblock and control the descent; this is very different from the rigid on/off of ATC guides and highlights the engineering significance of the Pivot.  I own both; the ATC Guide collects dust.

I've also lowered with the DMM Pivot without backup and without any trouble.

However, I would back it up if you're bringing up two followers and decide to lower one (or both). Maybe that's obvious but just in case...

Ted Pinson wrote: This is not true.  DMM maintains it is safe to lower without a backup and I’ve done this several times without issue.  The fact that the Guide mode hole moves (pivots) allows you to slowly release the autoblock and control the descent; this is very different from the rigid on/off of ATC guides and highlights the engineering significance of the Pivot.  I own both; the ATC Guide collects dust.

Ah, well I stand corrected!  That is pretty cool.  

The load-strand direct (LSD) lower is a phenomenal tool every multipitch climber should look into.  It makes lowering on a guide-style device a dream, no matter the device (though I find it easiest with the ATC guide due to the orientation).  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vB7tMKLh-g
https://www.climbing.com/skills/the-lsd-lower-how-to-lower-in-guide-mode/

Adam Fleming wrote: The load-strand direct (LSD) lower is a phenomenal tool every multipitch climber should look into.  It makes lowering on a guide-style device a dream, no matter the device (though I find it easiest with the ATC guide due to the orientation).  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vB7tMKLh-g
https://www.climbing.com/skills/the-lsd-lower-how-to-lower-in-guide-mode/

I agree every climber should climb using LSD at least once.

Adam Fleming wrote: The load-strand direct (LSD) lower is a phenomenal tool every multipitch climber should look into.  It makes lowering on a guide-style device a dream, no matter the device (though I find it easiest with the ATC guide due to the orientation).  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vB7tMKLh-g
https://www.climbing.com/skills/the-lsd-lower-how-to-lower-in-guide-mode/

Okay, I learned this method because I want to get AMGA certs, but I have a bunch of problems with it:

1. Am I the only one that thinks this method seems a bit unpredictable? It seems like the thickness/shape of the carabiner and thickness/texture of the rope, as well as which device you're using, could cause a lot of variance in behavior for this method. Certainly trying it with the same device and carabiner on two different ropes gave significantly different experiences.

2. I'm not aware of a manufacturer who recommends this method, likely because it directly defeats the locking mechanism of the device.

3. I've been castigated as a noob on this site for backing up my guide mode lower with a Prusik instead of a Munter. Having tried both, I do agree that the Munter works better. I don't see why that wouldn't apply here. The positioning is weird, true, but the positioning for the getting the carabiner in there for load strand direct lowering is a bit weird. And if you're backing up with the Munter, the process looks suspiciously like defeating the belay device and lowering with the Munter (do that).

4. All of this requires that the climber be able to unweight the rope. Lowering in guide mode is rare enough, and it's even rarer that you'll need to lower in guide mode when the climber can unweight the rope. The #1 situation I've been concerned that I might have to lower is when there's a fall into space at the crux, and that's the only situation I've ever actually had to lower. And if the climber can completely unweight the rope, there are a host of options, including ones that don't require backups at all, such as cloving the load strand to the anchor, moving the belay device to your harness belay loop, uncloving, and lowering them from your harness (a redirect might make this nicer). This is a weird, specific solution that only works for a problem with a bunch of better solutions.