A less bulky anchor: Replacing a cordelette setup with a 240cm Dynex runner - what am I missing?

In a nutshell:  Can a 240cm dynex runner (~8 feet loop) replace my 7mm cordelette for most anchor setups?  I.e., a quad anchor on two bolts, or a standard 3-piece gear anchor w/ master point, or wrapped around a tree?  I am typically the rope gun, and often bring two followers up at the same time on separate ropes using a reverso/ATC-guide.  Thus, building a rope anchor doesn't really work since I need my end to lead subsequent pitches.  And I almost never need to untie my cordelette from its loop, so that isn't really an issue.

I am aware of the need for a dynamic element to the system (my climbers anchor themselves using their rope and a clove hitch), and I am aware of the risk of sharp edges/abrasion on the less robust sling.  So, what am I missing?  Are the knots (e.g., a quad setup) suspect for some reason?  Would a nylon runner be better?

The reason I ask, is primarily to reduce bulk (carrying two cordelettes is bulky), without losing my ability to quickly setup a quad anchor or standard 3-point anchor.  Thoughts?

That's why I have one. If you're missing something I am too. 

I stopped carrying my cordalette about 15 years ago. Up until recently I was only carry 3x 240cm runners. For many years I never found myself lacking when building natural anchors all over US. I recently picked up 2x 480cm runners and like them a lot. Now I generally carry 1-2 240s and 2x 480s. One cordalette is too many; two cordalettes is absurd. ;-)

I love mine, but I do carry at least one cordalette for the team when alpine climbing because I find myself building more funky anchors up there. I also am much more willing to chop up a cordalette for tat.

240 cm is usually fine, every once in a while you'll need an extra sling when the anchor placements are duper far apart

I use long slings. If you twist them up, they get really compact. 

Ryan Swanson wrote: Don’t worry about your setup. Sounds fine.

Although, I’m sure some crusty bastard will still tell you that you have to use the rope or your anchor will fail, you will crater, and the explosion will kill every lab puppy in the lower 48

Lol, I was waiting for something like that.

Plenty of folks have already said it... but I'm just gonna chime in and say replacing my Cordelette with one 180 cm and one 240 cm Mammut Contact slings was one of the best gear upgrades I've ever made... It's pretty much all any of my partners use these days too.

I also replaced my cordalette with a mammut 240cm sling for most situations

Ryan Swanson wrote: Don’t worry about your setup. Sounds fine.

Although, I’m sure some crusty bastard will still tell you that you have to use the rope or your anchor will fail, you will crater, and the explosion will kill every lab puppy in the lower 48

LOL! I won't say your anchor will fail or imply dead puppies, but as for "what am I missing" definitely less gear/less bulk by just using the rope!

(Don't know if I'm crusty, no eczema or anything, and I was born to parents in wedlock, but unlike some crusty bastards, I'm not going to fault you for using other materials that are generally considered useful or safe)

Edit: BTW, depends on who I am climbing with, but often block leading I do use a cordelette with masterpoint.

Hmm this has me thinking.  What sling do you guys use?  

John Wilder wrote:

Edelrid tech web. Cheap, low bulk, and you can cut it, tie it in a knot and keep the 22kn rating. It's also easy to untie knots in it.

The 8mm stuff is just too skinny, tough to untie, and the 100 day shelf life just isn't enough for me.

No 240 though right?

Put a carabiner through the masterpoint knot and use an overhand on a bight if you want to make a masterpoint

https://www.climbing.com/.amp/skills/quick-clips-send-us-your-climbing-hacks-win-a-large-dmm-dragon-cam/

Edit: added link for an example 

Toad wrote: The reason I ask, is primarily to reduce bulk (carrying two cordelettes is bulky), without losing my ability to quickly setup a quad anchor or standard 3-point anchor.  Thoughts?

Are we talking about modern high-strength cordage here? I carry two cordalettes made of 5.9mm Sterling Powercord (21kN) and it's about as bulky as the 120cm 8mm alpine draw I carry for extending cams. Granted the Powercord is wound tighter because it doesn't need to be unraveled mid-pitch. It costs about the same as a 240cm contact sling, but it's 20ft long so I can use it more easily for tree anchors and more spread out gear anchors. I suspect it's also more durable than the slings.

I'm not criticizing your setup, though--the Powercord has its downsides. It's a bit stiffer than I'd like, and takes a while to break in, and the knot gets in the way. I'm just saying if you're comparing modern dyneema slings to old thick cord, you're not making a fair comparison.

EDIT: Adding an image for comparison. Top is a 120cm dyneema sling done up as an alpine draw, bottom is a cordalette made of 5.9mm tech cord. Like I said, this is just how I carry them--if I wrapped the dyneema sling tighter they'd probably be more comparable in size, or the dyneema would be slightly smaller (but keep in mind that's comparing 120cm to 20ft).

John Wilder wrote:

Well I wouldn't call Technora cord 'new'- that stuff has been around as long as I've been climbing. Some people really like it, but it's short lifespan and super stiff nature put alot of people off. It also used to have a pretty high price tag, which further reduced it's appeal, but it looks like Sterling found a way to keep it more affordable.

I didn't call it new, I called it modern. :D

I've experienced the super stiff nature, but the short lifespan is news to me. Got a source for that? I actually thought it had a longer lifespan, not a shorter one--the advertising materials claim it has "excellent tensile strength and fatigue resistance". And subjectively it seems to have held up pretty well for over a year.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Are we talking about modern high-strength cordage here? I carry two cordalettes made of 5.9mm Sterling Powercord (21kN) and it's about as bulky as the 120cm 8mm alpine draw I carry for extending cams. Granted the Powercord is wound tighter because it doesn't need to be unraveled mid-pitch. It costs about the same as a 240cm contact sling, but it's 20ft long so I can use it more easily for tree anchors and more spread out gear anchors. I suspect it's also more durable than the slings.

I'm not criticizing your setup, though--the Powercord has its downsides. It's a bit stiffer than I'd like, and takes a while to break in, and the knot gets in the way. I'm just saying if you're comparing modern dyneema slings to old thick cord, you're not making a fair comparison.

EDIT: Adding an image for comparison. Top is a 120cm dyneema sling done up as an alpine draw, bottom is a cordalette made of 5.9mm tech cord. Like I said, this is just how I carry them--if I wrapped the dyneema sling tighter they'd probably be more comparable in size, or the dyneema would be slightly smaller (but keep in mind that's comparing 120cm to 20ft).

My thoughts as well.  To be honest, I’ve never gotten the big deal about cordellette bulk.  Are people getting hit in the face with cord or something?  Just clip it to the back of your harness and climb.  Yet another solution in need of a problem...

Different routes call for different gear. If the anchors are bolts or gear I’ll take a sling or use the rope. Tree anchors or alpine I bring cord.

John Wilder wrote:

I'd have to dig pretty hard, but Technora was famous for fatigue issues due to the stiffness- bending over and over again broke down the fibers far quicker than nylon. I seem to recall that Bluewater recommended replacement yearly for their Titan cord which had a Technora core.

It's been a long time since I've seen or heard anything about it on the forums- maybe since the old rc.com days when there was some healthy debate over whether it was an appropriate anchoring material. Could be tech has changed.

I believe you're remembering first generation Gemini cord. That stuff is long gone.  The current cords are suitably stable, though nothing beats Nylon.

Edit - the Moyer et al paper in the following post is indeed Gen1 Gemini. Work was done ~20 years ago.

Hey John---I was under the impression that Technora is less prone to fatigue after cyclic loading when compared to Kevlar. A quick search showed better "flexural fatigue" properties for Technora over Kevlar....but that was one source and approx 1.5x "better" performance---so what the hell does that mean? Catastrophic failure six months later?! No clue! Further searching didn't reveal much...love to hear someone's definitive/educated take on the matter.

I use tech cord (Technora) for my prussik/third hand specifically because it resists cyclic loading/repeated flexing/flexural fatigue/etc better than Kevlar...but I confess I don't have a firm source/evidence for that belief! Worth digging into...

Further digging: http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/High_Strength_Cord.pdf

"The decrease in strength with use is a worry for
any of the Technora, Kevlar or Vectran materials. The Gemini and the Spectra-A are also extremely stiff and
difficult to tie and untie. An 18 -foot piece makes a bulky object hanging from the harness. They make excellent
chock cord (where a stiff cord is desirable), but would make a poor cordelette. Among the high-strength cords,
Titan seems to be the most suitable material for cordelettes. The Ultratape is even better, and the webolette is an
elegant solution to multi-point anchors, although we'd prefer to see slightly higher strength on the single-strand
arms. Last, Nylon cord and webbing may be the best of all. Although heavier, they are cheap, strong, universally
available, and seem to have a virtually unlimited flex life."

It wouldn't terribly surprise me if the material wore down over time--it generally behaves a bit weirdly, feels almost waxy. What I'm relying on here is normal inspection criteria for ropes and cord: no sheath damage that exposes the core, no lumps or flat spots, and no discoloration or fading.

Nothing wrong with it, just tie everyone in twice. Once to the sling (primary) **and** once to a biner on the gear (redundant) so all three of you are not relying on one sling.

Or all the lab puppies in the lower 48 will use your nuts as chew toys.