Brand preference for 1/2 inch ss316 bolts

Given the absolutely unaffordable nature of Hilti kb3 1/2 bolts in ss316 (13$ per stud...), what brand are people placing for 316 1/2?  The numbers are not quite as good on some of the cheaper brands, but with 1/2 inch they are all overbuilt.

Right now the best way I have found to equip a route in 316 is buying petzl Coeur stainless 12mm bolt/hanger combos.  Total retail cost is around 11$ per bolt hanger combo, but with various discounting strategies can be had around 6$ apiece.  (Moosejaw activejunky 15% and 30% reward coupon... Requires me to have money tied up to spend at moosejaw).   The other disadvantage is getting 12mm bits it a little annoying but not overly expensive.

Thoughts?  I am not interested in putting in cheap gear (thus I am using ss316...) but was curious how people felt about powers/redhead/ect studs of the 1/2 316 variety.  If various brands are junk, explain why if ya can!   

what's the rock type?  is 3/8" an option for you?

Climbtech Wave Bolts (316 SS) retail for $6.25 and an $18.00 bottle of glue will do 12-15 bolts...

Hard Greywacke and granite.   3/8 is an option, but I am really striving to put in 1/2 or 12mm when possible just due to the added lifespan of a thicker bolt.  Some may be going in near (cold climate, no surf to bring up spray, no scc problems I know of) the ocean.  Others will be in semi Alpine terrain and may be low traffic so not likely to get regular maintainence.

Team Tough (Bolt Products US Dist) sells 316SS in a variety of configs.  Their glue ins are the best and less than other options.  They also sell both 10mm and 12mm 316 wedges that are of extremely high quality.  10x80mm $1.99, 10x100mm $2.50, 12x110mm $3.15.  Glue ins are 12mm or 16mm and range from $4.75 - $5.75

12mm Wedges are extremely beefy.  Unlike 5 Pieces (which really are 3/8 shafts) the 12mm or 1/2 Wedges are ridiculously beefy.  Like 52kN beefy.  Unless there's a known crux bolt etc I'd say the 1/2 in is overkill, particularly given your rock type.  Just returning from Squamish and noted they seem to have standardized on Stainless 3/8 / 10mm wedges for nearly all their rebolting efforts there. Likely similar situation to yours.

I may switch to glue ins at some point given the strength/cost ratio but I will want some mentorship on it before I do.     I didn't see team toughs wedges!  Those are a great price.  I assume if they are high enough quality for bolt products to sell them, they are gtg.  Looks like they batch test them which is reassuring.  

I maybe should consider using 10mm and 3/8 stuff, I just figure if I am gonna put a hole in rock, I better make sure it is super bomber and will last a long time.

s.price wrote: Has anyone ever bought threaded stainless rod and cut to length for glue ins? Then installing a regular stainless hanger on it.
Overheard a conversation at the gym the other night. Is this a good idea?
They seemed to think it would save money.

It's been done but IMO, a PITA and doesn't save $.  You still have to buy the hanger and now, a SS nut as well never mind you don't really know the quality of that rod you're buying.  Hard to beat the Bolt Products at ~$5 for 316

Nick B wrote: I may switch to glue ins at some point given the strength/cost ratio but I will want some mentorship on it before I do.     I didn't see team toughs wedges!  Those are a great price.  I assume if they are high enough quality for bolt products to sell them, they are gtg.  Looks like they batch test them which is reassuring.  

I maybe should consider using 10mm and 3/8 stuff, I just figure if I am gonna put a hole in rock, I better make sure it is super bomber and will last a long time.

Team Tough / Bolt Products Wedge Bolts

Thx matt

s.price wrote:

That was my thinking as well.

Plus the issues of spinning hangers / stolen hangers / matching metals / and possibly creep subject to the certification on the adhesive (although most are creep resistant) is re-introduced when a glue-in bolt eliminates these considerations.

Since threaded rod has no means of centralising itself within the hole, the bar can slump whilst the adhesive is gelling and often the hangers don't fit flat against the rock.

Far easier to place a normal expansion or glue-in.

i have equipped a couple routes with the bolt products / team tough 12mm wedge bolts, they really are awesome. I'm able to get lucky with a petzl pro deal on the hangers so they come out to about $5 or $6 for a bolt + hanger and about $25 or so for an anchor thats easily maintainable with two bolts + quicklinks + steel fixe rap rings

Nick B wrote: I may switch to glue ins at some point given the strength/cost ratio but I will want some mentorship on it before I do.     I didn't see team toughs wedges!  Those are a great price.  I assume if they are high enough quality for bolt products to sell them, they are gtg.  Looks like they batch test them which is reassuring.  

I maybe should consider using 10mm and 3/8 stuff, I just figure if I am gonna put a hole in rock, I better make sure it is super bomber and will last a long time.

They'll likely be using any 3/8" 304 SS bolts you place after your dead unless in a seaside environment.

But, $2 a piece for the team-tough 10mm 316 bolts is totally reasonable. Just be sure your rock type is good for wedge anchors. If it is, the 80mm are more than good enough. In sound rock extra length doesn't add much.

s.price wrote: Has anyone ever bought threaded stainless rod and cut to length for glue ins? Then installing a regular stainless hanger on it.
Overheard a conversation at the gym the other night. Is this a good idea?
They seemed to think it would save money.

I think a bigger issue is that the glue wouldn't penetrate the threads well. You'd end up with air pockets next to most of the threads due to the high viscosity and surface tension of the glue. This would give you substantially lower pull-out strength than a wave glue-in

Glass Tupperware wrote:

I think a bigger issue is that the glue wouldn't penetrate the threads well. You'd end up with air pockets next to most of the threads due to the high viscosity and surface tension of the glue. This would give you substantially lower pull-out strength than a wave glue-in

Very much depends on the adhesive viscosity and type.

Use a cheap polyester and the pull out load will be much lower than an epoxy. Use a hybrid or any adhesive with aggregate filler and sure it will reduce mechanical keying in around the threads however as an example, Titan climbing staples are threaded 8.8mm CP Ti bar on each leg and with a premium epoxy the pull out loads are massive (circa 65kN) without failure in competent rock.

The same can be demonstrated with a Fixe glue-in since the stamped grooves are not particularly deep; difference of adhesive can either be full extraction on / or just over just meeting radial EN959 or no movement and the weld on the eye snaps.

Wave bolts are arguably superior in the design feature and therefore holding power especially the twist leg because of the number of degrees through which the shaft is rotated (720).

Threaded rod is something of a half-way solution and has no real advantages and some big disadvantages.
First off it´s usually not cheaper as you have to buy the rod (and cut it) then buy a washer, nut and hanger + you need all the stuff to do glue-ins as well.
Second the quality of most threaded rod is appalling, from a 10mm rod you are lucky to see 8-9kN before it shears off. There is good threaded rod available but this isn´t cheap! Many of the anchor manufacturers also supply threaded rod fasteners, Hilti for example supply a large range in both Imperial and Metric threads.
Bonding to the threads isn´t an issue, that the resin manufacturers also supply threaded fasteners makes this obvious  
As Francis mentioned creep can be an issue, the Australians has problems with this if I remember rightly. All resins creep to some extent when they are under continuous load and keeping a hanger tight takes a fair amount of force so the resin can start to release the bolt especially in high temperatures.
Since you have to go to all the effort of glueing the bolt in but you still end up with a hanger that can be stolen or come loose, will damage your karabiners and can´t be lowered from the whole idea seems a bit silly, probably why it isn´t popular!

I have been using 7/16 and 1/2 threaded rod for top anchors. Even if the rod is not great it is plenty strong with those sizes. The main reasons I have chosen this route:

1 ease of maintenance
2 when if future replacement is necessary it will be easy to do. Double nut the threaded rod and screw it out of the glue.

I love the bolt-products bolts for protection points but if used for top anchors I think wear should be taken into account. Rusted links, heavy chains/hooks hanging on 6mm rod is going to be bad for someone in the future. Of course Jim Titts light weight chain, vertical orientation, pigtail combo is not going to have the same issue as 20 lbs of carbon steel link chain and hook swinging in the breeze.

Timothy Fisher wrote: I have been using 7/16 and 1/2 threaded rod for top anchors. Even if the rod is not great it is plenty strong with those sizes. The main reasons I have chosen this route:

1 ease of maintenance
2 when if future replacement is necessary it will be easy to do. Double nut the threaded rod and screw it out of the glue.

I love the bolt-products bolts for protection points but if used for top anchors I think wear should be taken into account. Rusted links, heavy chains/hooks hanging on 6mm rod is going to be bad for someone in the future. Of course Jim Titts light weight chain, vertical orientation, pigtail combo is not going to have the same issue as 20 lbs of carbon steel link chain and hook swinging in the breeze.

Best of luck unscrewing them, unless of course you didn´t clean the anti-galling treatment off before you installed them. Actually the standards require that resin anchors can´t be unscrewed (there is a torque test) and "plenty strong" isn´t an option for commercial manufacturers, tested to the strength specified in the standards is the legal requirement not guessing.

The weight of a chainset damaging the bolt? I´ll add that to the file of bizarre theories I´ve heard along with the bolt vibrating in the wind and suffering from fatigue fractures. Exactly why bolt made of 6mm rod which is over 50% stronger than a standard plate hanger should be more susceptible to wear or damage kinda escapes me anyway.

Jim I doubt I will change your mind but here goes. For all the disadvantages of plate hangers one advantage is they are easily replaced. Your twist bolts can only be core drilled. You and I may never need to worry about that but...

I have seen significant wear on stainless hangers with carbon steel quick links and chains after less than 15 years. Maybe your bolts will last till the glue is gone as long as only stainless is used to connect to them?

I did a test on a quarzite block. 9/16 hole 4 x 1/2" 304 rod with 45 degree cut in the hole. The rod was cleaned with brake cleaner. A7 acrlylic glue. Based on the cheater I used it took more than 200 ft lbs the to get the bolt  to start to turn. Was hard going most of the way out. But that was with freshly cured glue. May be easier in 50 years. The effort also made me quite comfortable with the rod I am using.