Ice Axe Q's

Hi all,
I'm looking for some advice on an ice axe. What is the difference between a straight shaft axe (BD Raven) vs a slightly curved axe (Petzl Summit Evo)? Will it hinder my ability to self arrest? I plan on doing moderate mountaineering this summer in the cascades, and am looking into doing some ski mountaineering this coming winter. I've only climbed single pitch ice and mixed and have a pair of nomics for that climbing application. 
Any and all recommendations and knowledge sharing is greatly appreciated.

I feel like you're going to get a lot of different opinions on this one, but if the primary use of your ice axe is self arrest, I would consider a lightweight straight shaft axe. I really like my Petzl Glacier Literide, still has steel in the right places, pretty light (but not the lightest), and the short length cleans up nicely either on your pack or between your pack and back. Works well enough skiing too. I personally enjoy the fact it has a real steel spike, the bevel ones (Petzl Ride style) don't grab as nice on ice.

That said, I have a Petzl Summit too, and the slight curve makes digging (t-slots and what not) easier, and I think outdoor gear lab gave it good reviews for that reason. Compared to the other one, it's a beast though. It may provide better clearance on steeper pitches as well, but I'm prone to my Quarks if I expect sustained terrain of that nature. I certainly do not think the curve hinders self arrest, and for my 2 cents, if a curved shaft is the difference between you arresting and not, get a rope out and some protection...that's a tight margin there.

Jonathan Loke wrote: Hi all,
I'm looking for some advice on an ice axe. What is the difference between a straight shaft axe (BD Raven) vs a slightly curved axe (Petzl Summit Evo)? Will it hinder my ability to self arrest? I plan on doing moderate mountaineering this summer in the cascades, and am looking into doing some ski mountaineering this coming winter. I've only climbed single pitch ice and mixed and have a pair of nomics for that climbing application. 
Any and all recommendations and knowledge sharing is greatly appreciated.

Straight shaft is based on a traditional piolet. Plunges easily, greatest self-arrest ease, and isn't a technical axe at all.  Comes in different types and usually weights a lot.

Slightly curved, will give more technically climbing ability and is all around upgrade to straight shaft.

If you don't want an technical climbing ability other than going up snow and want to ski-mo, then look at this: https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Ice-axes/GULLY
The spike won't be so useful on a bare glacier but it will be way lighter and can have good all around ability other than ice climbing.

jg fox wrote:

Straight shaft is based on a traditional piolet. Plunges easily, greatest self-arrest ease, and isn't a technical axe at all.  Comes in different types and usually weights a lot.

Slightly curved, will give more technically climbing ability and is all around upgrade to straight shaft.

If you don't want an technical climbing ability other than going up snow and want to ski-mo, then look at this: https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Ice-axes/GULLY
The spike won't be so useful on a bare glacier but it will be way lighter and can have good all around ability other than ice climbing.

FWIW I have the gulley and I'd prefer to have a Petzl Ride with a Trigrest added. While I love the gulley, I find it a bit more technical than I'd like and would prefer the traditional curve for self arrest.

Jeremy Bauman wrote:
FWIW I have the gulley and I'd prefer to have a Petzl Ride with a Trigrest added. While I love the gulley, I find it a bit more technical than I'd like and would prefer the traditional curve for self arrest.

Ok, good feedback. I was going to buy a gully for ski mo to replace my oversized Grivel airtech racing.

Jeremy Bauman wrote:
FWIW I have the gulley and I'd prefer to have a Petzl Ride with a Trigrest added. While I love the gulley, I find it a bit more technical than I'd like and would prefer the traditional curve for self arrest.

I added a trigrest to my Literide (can't justify getting the Ride...yet) and I like that setup too.

I have a Petzl Summit Evo and BD Raven.  I have never actually used the Raven (It was a gift), I just don't see the point when i can get more functionality out of the Evo.  Also the pommel on the EVO is really comfortable when used for walking.

Have you looked at the Black Diamond Whippet ?   It is basically a collapsible ski pole with an integrated pick on the handle (specifically for self arrest). My friend showed me one this winter and i can really see the usefulness for ski mountaineering.  Just use that for your ski pole and then bring those Nomics out when you need to get vertically oriented.

Petzl Summit is GTG...skip the Evo version.

What routes are you looking at? 

I'll jump in with a question -- is there any real difference between the Petzl sum'tec and summit /evo?  Or the BD venom?  They all seem pretty much the same, it's hard to read through the marketing fluff as a snow gumby.  Does the pick geometry make a noticeable difference, or do some people just like to micro-optimize their setup?

http://www.grivel.com/products/ice/ice_axes/85-air_tech_evo_g-bone

Buy this once in 48 or 53cm and you're good.

Harold Sutton wrote:Have you looked at the Black Diamond Whippet ?   It is basically a collapsible ski pole with an integrated pick on the handle (specifically for self arrest).

I’m in a similar position as the OP but more geared towards touring. I like the idea of two whippets for the “4-wheel drive” going up and stashed on the pack going down (I’m a splitter). However I’ve read mixed reviews about falling on them for self-arrest, and I’m no lightweight. Can’t decide!

Eric Roe wrote: I'll jump in with a question -- is there any real difference between the Petzl sum'tec and summit /evo?  Or the BD venom?  They all seem pretty much the same, it's hard to read through the marketing fluff as a snow gumby.  Does the pick geometry make a noticeable difference, or do some people just like to micro-optimize their setup?

Sum'Tec has a reverse curved pick, and the Venom has a positive curve. If you are using it on ice the reverse curved pick is easier to remove. If you are talking about usefulness, yes each detail on the axe is pretty much purpose driven; however if your just using it as a general self arrest/digging tool they become show pieces. 

Harold Sutton wrote: I have a Petzl Summit Evo and BD Raven.  I have never actually used the Raven (It was a gift), I just don't see the point when i can get more functionality out of the Evo.  Also the pommel on the EVO is really comfortable when used for walking.

Have you looked at the Black Diamond Whippet ?   It is basically a collapsible ski pole with an integrated pick on the handle (specifically for self arrest). My friend showed me one this winter and i can really see the usefulness for ski mountaineering.  Just use that for your ski pole and then bring those Nomics out when you need to get vertically oriented.

Definitely a good option that I have seen. How well does it self arrest?

Floyd Eggers wrote: What routes are you looking at? 

Looking at doing the north ridge of Baker, east ridge of Eldorado, north ridge of forbidden peak etc. 

Jonathan Loke wrote:

Looking at doing the north ridge of Baker, east ridge of Eldorado, north ridge of forbidden peak etc. 

If you're doing NR of baker just get something with a slight curve as your normal tool, sum'tec or cassin x-light in 50cm. They work fine for general mountaineering like you'll need for eldo/forbidden. I find them easier to work with plunging when it's over 45 degrees (and I'll actually be plunging the shaft). 

For steep snow/glacier travel I use a camp corsa nano for low pack weight, that matters more on rock routes to me. 8oz is barely noticeable. I slipped coming down the snowpatch bugaboo col last summer (no pons on) and it did self arrest just fine.

Whippets in testing are a royal PITA to arrest with, I stopped using one ski touring. If I really need one I just attach that camp nano to my ski pole with a couple voile straps. Big shaft to torque in below your chest on, adze is easy to grab with top hand. You get neither of those benefits with the whippet. If you just loose balance and land with a whippet dug in I can see not moving, but you start sliding it's game over. 

Floyd Eggers wrote:

Sum'Tec has a reverse curved pick, and the Venom has a positive curve. If you are using it on ice the reverse curved pick is easier to remove. If you are talking about usefulness, yes each detail on the axe is pretty much purpose driven; however if your just using it as a general self arrest/digging tool they become show pieces. 

The Venoms have replaceable picks and the choice to use either a classic pick or a reverse curved pick.  The Venom adze comes with the classic pick and the hammer comes with the reverse curved pick.  I have a pair of the older black version and have reverse curved picks on both of mine but never really use them for their potential.  They would be my go-to for objectives like NR on Baker or other mellow alpine ice.  For longer/harder sustained alpine ice I'd want a pinky rest (which the new ones have) or I'd go with Sum'tecs.

I carry a whippet for almost all of my splitboard touring days, I think two would be overkill but I find one to be useful enough to justify the weight.  The pick can be handy for clearing stubborn ice out of dynafit touring toes and other small places and the tang on the side of the pick is good for lifting my climbing wires.  I've also caught a slide on steep hard frozen corn that would have been very bad without the whippet.  In the future I'd switch to boot crampons before putting myself into a situation like that (I fell mid-kickturn with ski crampons on).

I find for most objectives that I actually want to snowboard down the whippet alone is enough for me but for more sporting objectives I just ordered a Petzl Ride to supplement the whippet or to use for easy glacier wandering where weight and self arresting matter more than swinging into ice.  I'll keep my Venoms for steeper/harder snow and ice.  I don't do anything that would need a more technical tool than the Venoms.

*Edit: For NR of Baker a recurved pick with a sharp top edge will swing easier and clean faster, Venoms or Sum'tec would be ideal; for ER of Eldorado any axe that you feel comfortable arresting with will be fine in most conditions; can't speak with any real relevant experience on Forbidden.*

I have a pair of old BD Venom's I wouldn't mind selling - $140 for the pair.