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yosemite finish on a figure 8 knot?

Original Post
B SK · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2018 · Points: 0

I found this comparison and it made me wonder if yosemite finish on a figure 8 knot can make the knot itself weaker (which does not make much sense to me)? if it can, what is the right way to make one?

Sam M · · Portland, OR · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 30

I wouldnt put much thought into an unscientific test like that.

Edit to clarify: there isnt enough data here to accept or reject the hypothesis that a yosemite finish weakens a fig 8.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Sam Miller wrote: I wouldnt put much thought into an unscientific test like that. 

What's unscientific about it?

My comment on this video is that I don't see much reason to care about cross loading knots.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

It does.  The biggest concern is ring-loading, which isn’t really much of a concern and is irrelevant for the regular use of tying in to climb.  YGD, but not from this.

Sam M · · Portland, OR · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 30
David Kerkeslager wrote:

What's unscientific about it?

My comment on this video is that I don't see much reason to care about cross loading knots.

A sample size of one means almost nothing.

Mike G · · Pennsyltucky · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 0

whether or not its "unscientific" why do you care about multi-directionally loading your figure eight?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

When a test produces a catastrophic failure, that result can hardly be dismissed as meaning "almost nothing."  

Whether one would want to add an extra turn to a knot which makes it transition to a potentially less secure version is a personal decision, but given that the unadorned figure 8 is perfectly adequate in every respect, why would anyone want to do anything that made the knot worse in any regard, even a loading scenario that seems unlikely? I think this is a clear-cut case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  

I suppose the response has to do with the difficulty of untying figure 8's after loading. If that is a real issue, the answer is a rethreaded bowline on a bight, not the Yosemite finish on an eight.

A tie-in knot can be ring-loaded if the climber clips it with a draw and hangs on it.  Of course, one can say "don't do that," but the scenario is not inconceivable.  Perhaps the main concern would be for those (like me) who clip their belay device to the rope tie-in loop rather than the harness belay loop.  At least partial ring-loading is possible when holding a leader fall, especially if the belayer is lifted. This isn't a problem unless the tie-in knot is capable of rolling under the load.

Mike G · · Pennsyltucky · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 0
rgold wrote: When a test produces a catastrophic failure, that result can hardly be dismissed as meaning "almost nothing."  

Whether one would want to add an extra turn to a knot which makes it transition to a potentially less secure version is a personal decision, but given that the unadorned figure 8 is perfectly adequate in every respect, why would anyone want to do anything that made the knot worse in any regard, even a loading scenario that seems unlikely? I think this is a clear-cut case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  

I suppose the response has to do with the difficulty of untying figure 8's after loading. If that is a real issue, the answer is a rethreaded bowline on a bight, not the Yosemite finish on an eight.

A tie-in knot can be ring-loaded if the climber clips it with a draw and hangs on it.  Of course, one can say "don't do that," but the scenario is not inconceivable.  Perhaps the main concern would be for those (like me) who clip their belay device to the rope tie-in loop rather than the harness belay loop.  At least partial ring-loading is possible when holding a leader fall, especially if the belayer is lifted. This isn't a problem unless the tie-in knot is capable of rolling under the load.

Im not a gambling man but id wager a figure eight with the yosemite is actually stronger or equal in a single directional pull than a normal figure eight

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Sam Miller wrote:

A sample size of one means almost nothing.

That's a pretty poor understanding of P values you've got there. A single result can be very significant if the probability of that result is very low.

Do you have any reason to believe that a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. test would have different results? Or any analysis of the probability of these results?

Again, I'm not particularly worried about cross loading because I don't ever create any cross loads on these knots in my climbing. I don't really have a reason to. I'm just going to insist that if you claim science is on your side you actually present some scientific evidence instead of just declaring things unscientific. Simply doing an experiment isn't ever unscientific; certainly drawing conclusions from experiments that don't isolate the hypothesis being tested is unscientific. But collecting evidence--even not very useful evidence--is certainly more scientific than simply declaring things unscientific with no evidence at all.
David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
rgold wrote: I suppose the response has to do with the difficulty of untying figure 8's after loading. If that is a real issue, the answer is a rethreaded bowline on a bight, not the Yosemite finish on an eight.

The other reason I hear for using the Yosemite finish on the figure 8 is that the tail can get confused with the belay strand when you're clipping to bolts/gear on lead.

I tend to agree with you that these problems are better solved by a bowline variant (I personally tie the double bowline with a double overhand).
Forrest Halley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 0

A Yosemite finish doesn't make the eight any easier to untie in my opinion and when lead climbing it made it so much worse. I use the Lee locked bowline now and it is secure and easy to get out when I need to. I wonder what the strength is on that...

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Mike G wrote:

Im not a gambling man but id wager a figure eight with the yosemite is actually stronger or equal in a single directional pull than a normal figure eight

Could be, but who cares, given that the ordinary eight is already way beyond strong enough---why do something to it that produces a weaker loading configuration?

Mike G · · Pennsyltucky · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 0
rgold wrote:

Could be, but who cares, given that the ordinary eight is already way beyond strong enough---why do something to it that produces a weaker loading configuration?

Weaker in an unintended-unlikely scenario? I don’t think there is a knot that doesn’t break or slip at a lower rope strength percentage when ring loaded so why would you ever subject your tie in knot to such a load? I understand this knowledge being applicable to rope rescue/access but not really for a tie in knot.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Forrest Halley wrote: A Yosemite finish doesn't make the eight any easier to untie in my opinion and when lead climbing it made it so much worse. I use the Lee locked bowline now and it is secure and easy to get out when I need to. I wonder what the strength is on that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xADp-BqpB8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay5TZYhgy0A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UKJ4YhwybE
NegativeK · · Nevada · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 40
David Kerkeslager wrote:

The other reason I hear for using the Yosemite finish on the figure 8 is that the tail can get confused with the belay strand when you're clipping to bolts/gear on lead.

Given that it's easier to stuff the tail into your hard points than the knot, that claim seems to be a solution looking for a problem.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Mike G wrote:

Weaker in an unintended-unlikely scenario? I don’t think there is a knot that doesn’t break or slip at a lower rope strength percentage when ring loaded so why would you ever subject your tie in knot to such a load? I understand this knowledge being applicable to rope rescue/access but not really for a tie in knot.

I answered that question above, but I agree that for most people it is very unlikely to matter.  However, one of the Yosemite finish variants came apart at about triple body weight, which means you really better not ever ring-load it for any reason. 

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Everett wrote: Given that it's easier to stuff the tail into your hard points than the knot, that claim seems to be a solution looking for a problem.

If you stuff the tail into your hard points and expect it to stay there through a climb, you have either an excessively long tail or unrealistic expectations.

marmot marmot · · Eugene, OR · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 173

I'd be curious of the difference in using the Figure-8 Follow (or as I learned it, the Yosemite Follow).

Sam M · · Portland, OR · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 30
David Kerkeslager wrote: Simply doing an experiment isn't ever unscientific; certainly drawing conclusions from experiments that don't isolate the hypothesis being tested is unscientific. But collecting evidence--even not very useful evidence--is certainly more scientific than simply declaring things unscientific with no evidence at all.

Since you seem determined to be obtuse, ill elaborate. What I meant is that there is not sufficient evidence from the experiment conducted to support the conclusion that knot A is weaker than knot B. If repeated would it yield similar results? We can't know for sure, there are too many variables at play. Yes, collecting raw data is part of the scientific process, but this particular data set isnt very useful, and I certainly wouldnt discourage anyone from using a fig 8 yosemite finish based on it, hence my original comment. 

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Sam Miller wrote:

Since you seem determined to be obtuse, ill elaborate. What I meant is that there is not sufficient evidence from the experiment conducted to support the conclusion that knot A is weaker than knot B. If repeated would it yield similar results? We can't know for sure, there are too many variables at play. Yes, collecting raw data is part of the scientific process, but this particular data isnt very useful, and I certainly wouldnt discourage anyone from using a fig 8 yosemite finish based on it, hence my original comment. 

I was aware that you might intend something like this, which is why I asked for clarification. It's not "obtuse" to respond to what you said, especially when I specifically asked for clarification and your clarification was a statistical argument that apparently has nothing to do with what you intended.

While I agree that the results are inconclusive, it's worth noting that conclusive/inconclusive isn't a binary. Unless there's some other test of cross-loaded tie-in knots that I don't know of, this is the most conclusive test we have, even if it's not very conclusive. I think if you look around, you'll discover that the publicly-available experimental data on knot strength quite often has sample sizes of one, or very few samples. The most accurate statements we can make about knot strength are often based on such data.

As I've reiterated--the results don't really apply to most people's climbing, since most people don't cross load their tie-ins. So yes, I wouldn't discourage most people from using the yosemite finish based on this. But for those of us (such as rgold) who cross load their tie-ins, simply dismissing the best data we have as "unscientific" seems both unscientific and unwise. If you cross-load your tie-ins, this test is absolutely valuable (and scientific) evidence.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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